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Discussion Starter #1
This bill is very close to passing. Here is what the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce has to say about it.

http://kycc.harvestmanager.net/mx/hm.asp?id=home&t=emz/emzalerts2&p1=275

"Action Alerts
Take Action: Help Stop Flawed Climate Change Legislation
As early as this Friday, Congress will consider the deeply flawed American Clean Energy and Security Act (ACES). This cap-and-trade bill would create a de-facto energy tax on businesses and families and result in significant economic harm – especially for coal producing states like Kentucky.

The bill limits the amount of traditional energy needed to run our economy while failing to ensure adequate substitute sources. This will cause drastically higher energy prices that, in today's economy, would be devastating in terms of jobs and our quality of life.
Implementing a cap and trade system and its regulatory framework, increasing the opportunity for lawsuits and enforcing higher energy prices will harm businesses and workers. With the current state of our economy, we cannot afford another setback. For more information about this climate change legislation, click here. Take action today - tell your Congressman to oppose the American Clean Energy and Security Act."

A friend of mine who is in the energy field said:



"The $3,000.00 is just the additional tax burden cost IF the status quo stays constant on the power plants currently operating stay on line.

As of today 91 mines in Eastern Kentucky have stopped production in the last 30 days!!!! Five new clean coal fired power plants slated for construction over the next three years have been halted, also within the last 30 days. That’s not hearsay or a news story, these are customers of our company and that’s fact. All in advance of this massive energy tax legislation!

If this passes the Senate with its additional provisions to stop mountain top removal and most types of strip mining the states of KY, WVA, Va, Pa, In, & Ill ( Barney’s home state ) will be bankrupt in two years!! No more coal severance taxes!! Losses of jobs in those states will also be staggering. Not just mining jobs, heavy equipment jobs, engineering, trucking, rail road… and it trickles on down!

Currently 58.5 % of the electricity in this country is generated by coal, 20% Nuke and 18% Hydro & Nat gas. Anybody seen any new Nuke plants or Dams being built around the country lately? "


So how do you feel about this bill?
 

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Too much trading, not enough capping. A near-total giveaway to the energy industry, with billions to the coal industry for R&D, the auto industry gets cash to update its product lines, agribusiness gets a free pass. And yet, as your quotes show, even this will be fought tooth and nail by polluters who want even bigger handouts (or who, like your friend, want to keep their head in the sand and do business as usual until irremediable catastrophe occurs in both climate change and loss of nonrenewable sources).

Here's some data from the CBO on how much it will cost households (the average family: about $165/yr.): http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/102xx/doc10262/hr2454.pdf These figures are pure cost and do not include potential benefits we might see by the slowing of climate change.

Here's what it will cost the economy as a whole: http://correspondents.theatlantic.c...what_waxman-markey_will_do_to_the_economy.php
 

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One big thing that bothers me about this is the same thing that I saw with TARP, the stimulus bill,etc. is that they are trying to railroad all this through and not giving it enough consideration.

That said, as I understand it this bill will significantly increase the tax burden on individuals and families. I don't see where it will help in developing alternate sources of energy. I think it is a bad idea. A better approach would be to provide the environment (no pun intended) to encourage development of alternate, clean energy sources. It amazes me that one of the cleanest sources, nuclear, is put on the back shelf and that technology already exists.
 

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One big thing that bothers me about this is the same thing that I saw with TARP, the stimulus bill,etc. is that they are trying to railroad all this through and not giving it enough consideration.

That said, as I understand it this bill will significantly increase the tax burden on individuals and families. I don't see where it will help in developing alternate sources of energy. I think it is a bad idea. A better approach would be to provide the environment (no pun intended) to encourage development of alternate, clean energy sources. It amazes me that one of the cleanest sources, nuclear, is put on the back shelf and that technology already exists.
Voted on even before it was read......typical politics.

Makes you wonder what they were hiding.......and why they had to push it thru so fast.


Even if it passes the house....the next administration will probably stop it.
 

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Voted on even before it was read......typical politics.

Makes you wonder what they were hiding.......and why they had to push it thru so fast.


Even if it passes the house....the next administration will probably stop it.
It is the stimulus bill all over again. A 1200 page bill that no one has read.

And Nathan, a counter point to your post--from the Growth Stock Wire:

http://www.growthstockwire.com/archive/2009/jul/2009_jul_01.asp

"Let's be clear: This 1,200-page bill isn't about saving the environment over the next few decades. This bill is about dollars – yours and mine – right now.

As soon as it's enacted, it will increase our electric bills by 32%. The costs will climb to an extra 62% within the first 18 to 24 months."
 

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I find it very hard to pick a side. On the one hand, I can't be in favor of mountaintop removal and strip mining. I'm not willing to pretend it's ok to tear the environment apart and worry about it later. On the other hand, I find it very interesting that the green types have gone from calling it global warming to calling it climate change. Apparently when it turned out that huge chunks of the data regarding global warming was based on faulty collection techniques, it became difficult to stick with that so now it is the much more ambiguous climate change.

I don't trust either side, but mostly I don't trust a massive government program that costs billions of dollars, has questionable benefits, and hasn't been read or understood by the very people who are supposed to vote on it.

I am also pretty sure that it's not the kind of thing you do in an already crappy economy.
 

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This Cap and trade bill was getting pushed hard and with no regard to the rules. The bill was supposed to be available for 5 days in the hopper and wasn't. the 300 page addendum was dropped in at 3:00 am. the morning of. This is classic NY state government style of doing business. It doesn't work in NY and it sure as hell won't work for the nation

The mid west is the nations biggest coal producers. I'm not entirely sure how much of the areas energy is produced with coal but I think it's near 50%. This bill will kill an already devastated mid west economy. Coal R&D money won't be enough. We'll be trading carbon credits like baseball cards. Not good.

Obama promised a lot to his supporters in the first 100 days. I'm OK with that. What is not OK is to ram a bunch of legislation through without a clear understanding of what is being spent versus the benefit. Any level headed individual thinks long and hard when they are about to commit to a major expense but apparently our current administration does not.
 
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