[windycanyon]

I sure hope people use common sense here. I'd have a bunch of dead Lab pups if I waited until 16 wks to vaccinate. Our local vets have been treating more than their fair share of parvo pups as the result of this kind of thinking.

In order to get puppies out to socialize and get that critical start on training before they hit 3-4 mos (this is recommended by the AKC, APDT folks and AVSAB--behavioral folks), we NEED our puppies to be properly vaccinated.

Anne

 

[windycanyon]

no way in hell i would wait that long. i honestly believe the trend in waiting too long and NOT vaccinating is going to jump up and bite us in the ass.

It already is here in WA. I was just at a vet clinic in the dead of winter/cold that told me of a breeder who told their client "absolutely NO vaccinations" on their pup til whatever age. Guess what? Parvo! Another dog (pet shop special) was being released just in front of mine after having been lucky to survive parvo (huge bill). Kris just refuses to listen to any reason. She's had her earfuls for a year or longer on RTF (think Field trial and other high level performance folks as well as vets, whose pups are on pro trucks before most of ours have been potty trained) but still posted this nonsense there too the other day.

Rural areas are safe? My butt! Strays and even coyotes are spreading parvo. The UPS or meter reader's truck that visits the "dump" of a house down the road runs over a pile of poo, and drives in spreading all the wealth to others. Our local rescues have had nightmares w/ parvo all winter long (I'm donating Neopar to the one group, however, it's often too late-- after the fact). I was told over 15 yrs ago we were not safe from parvo until we got up above the 4000 ft elevation level in the mountains and it would still be questionable if it was a public camp site. I had 2 pups from my very first litter come down w/ parvo at 12-13 wks (this was before we had as good of vaccines as I have now). Tell that to those folks that it's worth the risk.

Now that said, my 15.5 wk old pup, Envy, went swimming for her first time yesterday. She was at an agility trial last weekend and a (small) dog show at 11 wks old even. No WAY would I take her to a public park and allow that had she not been very well vaccinated against parvo and distemper. She's had Neopar at 5 wks (neopar was developed initially for the puppy mills!), followed by Progard 5 at 7, 10, 13 wks (both are high titer, low passage that DOES override maternal antibodies safely --- Progard 5 was shown to provide full protection at 12 wks btw in challenge studies). I still run a slight risk of lepto (just showing up in one stream locally). We're doing Lepto vac tomorrow and in 3 wks again. This pup, like my others, has logged at least 3000 miles w/ me safely since she was 7 wks, because of my vaccine protocol--- I'm positive of that.

I've been doing this regime for 6 yrs now, ever since another breeder exposed her 7 wk old pups (you know, those pups that Kris' info says are still to be protected by mom's antibodies?) and brought it home to another *3* wk old litter that was sick w/ in 2 wks as well. 3 litters, 20-some puppies in ICU w/ parvo, 8 died, several had permanent damage.... now tell me what my risks are??? Her vet and a lab breeder/vet put this vaccination program together and ever since, no one has had parvo outbreaks. I couldn't even take my litters to the ACVO's vet clinic (this is where my friend found the parvo) at 7.5 wks for their eye checks let alone my regular vet for well checks, w/o having some protection. My vet gives me full blessings for my protocol and said she'd do the same if she was still breeding.

Anyhow, as deadly as my vaccine program probably sounds to Kris, I've not had ANY immune issues in my pups, nor have any of the others who use this (who breed alot more than I do!). The vets seeing my puppies in different parts of the state/country are sending glowing reports back to me thru the owners, thanking me for caring so much about puppy diseases.

So Kris, until you become a breeder (or even a competitor who would understand the need for early training/socialization), you may want to think again what "good" you are really doing here by putting all this propaganda on every site you manage to get into.

To the rest, yes... weigh your risks. You can have unprotected, unsocialized, and untrained puppies that never develop to their full potentials in life because they've spent their first 4 mos in a bubble, or have well adjusted, successful pups that are protected against deadly preventable diseases. Your choice.

 

[windycanyon]

Amen to that. Not sure if I posted this pic, but here is 15 wk old Envy (5th generation WindyCanyon girl) sacked out after chasing pigeons next to her "favorite-ist" Great granny Gala.... nearly 14 yrs old.

Gala was most definitely "overvaccinated" by Kris' cohorts standards as was her mom who lived to 13.5). I now "only" give vaccines every 2-3 yrs after the puppy boosters at 1 yo, however, so maybe there is a 16 yo in there for me too, down the road. Envy's gramps lived to 15.5, despite a busy life in the show ring and field... Amazing isn't it?! Anne

 

[windycanyon]

Kris, I have to ask.... If your mission is really the Rabies Challenge study (to increase the time between Rabies vaccines in those states still requiring the annual booster primarily), why do you continue to harp on every lab site I visit about all the *other* vaccines and protocols too?

You do NOT wear the same shoes that so many of us do. You have NO idea what it's like to raise a litter of healthy puppies from your dream breeding, only to fear Parvo to come in on your visitors or at the park, vet clinic, or (worse?) after they go home to their families who have fallen head over heels in love...

As I recall, 2 of your pets died in middle age to what you believe was rabies vaccinosis induced (for some reason, I'm thinking the vet actually gave them 2 vaccines within the same year, in which case, it's not the vaccine's fault necessarily, it's the people for not catching it). But I have to ask--- were they well bred? From healthy, long living lines? Heck, did you know ANYTHING about their background? Could you rule OUT your own environment as a possible causal factor to a poor immune system?

I CAN sympathize. I lost an extremely healthy 9.5 yo this past summer to strychnine POISONING (thanks to a stupid, careless human!!!). Some things just happen and we have to live on, as hard as that may seem at the time... but surely, that did not put me on a crusade against all agriculture just because one farm employee was careless. I will never accept her loss, but wow, this was a dog that received all her vaccines regularly, and yes, she died before the ER vet's (who marvelled at her athletic condition) and my own eyes--- to strychnine poisoning in Aug. Some battles you just need to choose... and attacking all vaccines and painting a broad brush over all of us is the WRONG thing to do.

I would MUCH rather have a well adjusted, well socialized dog who died at even 9.5 (like Rosa) but better, at her mom and granny's 13-14 yrs vs a psychotic nutcase that lived to 18 because it was kept in a sterile bubble.... or worse, losing an innocent puppy to something as preventable as parvo or distemper. Anne

 

[windycanyon]

My dog had a reaction after receiving his rabies shot, Lyme shot and the DHLPP shot all in one visit, and I am terrified as to what kind of reaction he might have if we do it again.

Here are a few tips. First, never vaccinate a weak or sick dog (or one about to come into heat like I did several years ago!). Just the past few days, I had to put off a vaccine w/ my 16 wk old pup as she acted lethargic the day before I was going to do her first lepto. Ends up she came down w/ a bladder infection within 2 days. That was a good move to not vaccinate her as I could have well had a reaction or worse under those circumstances. Now I'll likely wait til the end of this week to make sure she's fine before doing so.

Current research doesn't support giving all those vaccines together either and I bet if you asked your vet, he'd be happy to split them up and discuss everything w/ you! Would you challenge your kid's immune system to 7 different diseases all at once? Vets do that because people are basically LAZY (and uninformed). Most owners don't want to go back for 3 visits if they can do it all at once and the vets don't have time to remind folks to get their dogs back in all the time. I do my own vaccines (other than rabies) and can tell you it's a scheduling nightmare around 6 dogs, 4 that are intact, and so I am working around heat cycles, competitions, and breedings.... and 1 puppy that needs a ton that first year. And one geriatric oldster who btw, had annual vaccines thru age 6 or so and is almost 14 now. She does have a splenic mass now, but I hardly blame that on vaccinations!

Once we are through the puppy series and 1 yr booster, I now only give a core combo (Progard 5) every *3* yrs as recommended by the teaching vet schools for the past many years. I do my Lepto vax (just now becoming a prob in the area) separately--- at least 3 wks from any other vaccine-- this must be done annually so the Vangaurd L-4 stand alone works well for me. Rabies is also done separately by at least 3 wks, as should your Lyme vaccine (not a prob here YET).

Some folks will recommend titering but I've seen some failures there too, so don't know what to think about relying on those results.

These are a few things you can do to reduce your chances of reactions. Please remember WHY vaccines were developed. It's far better to take a small risk than to lose your beloved companion to a PREVENTABLE puppy disease like parvo. The vaccines are nothing to be terrified of but the diseases are.

 

[windycanyon]

That's something I'd definitely be asking my vet. From what I understand, the very young and very old w/ weak immune systems are most vulnerable to the diseases so you don't want to let your guard down too far.... but surely, I'd not vax if his condition is not stable at the time.