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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When considering at what age a puppy should begin receiving its core vaccines, consider the information from the American Animal Hospital Association stating that the maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfer with the immune response. Bear in mind that there are risks associated with vaccinating as well as risks associated with not vaccinating. Making an informed decision is important. Also, be aware that giving combo vaccines (multi-valent) and/or several shots at once increases the risk of adverse reactions as well as the risk that the vaccines will interfere with each other, resulting in neutralization or negation.

In the August 2008 issue of The Whole Dog Journal, Dr. Ronald Schultz reports in an article entitled, Vaccinations 101, by Lisa Rodier, "Research shows that less than 50 percent of puppies will respond at six weeks; 75 percent at nine weeks; 90 percent at 12 weeks; and by 14 to16 weeks, close to 100 percent will respond. "

In an August 1, 2008 article in DVM360 entitled Vaccination: An Overview,http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351 Dr. Melissa Kennedy states: Vaccination of the young begins at 6-8 weeks of age. Multiple boosters are given because maternal immunity interferes with vaccinal response. Because one doesn't know the level in each animal for each pathogen at each time point (and it is not feasible nor cost-effective to measure this), repeated boosters are given until the point when maternal immunity has likely decreased sufficiently to allow induction of immunity, usually at 16-18 weeks of age.

On Page 16 of the of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it reports that: When vaccinating an animal, the age of the animal, the animal's immune status, and interference by maternal antibodies in the development of immunity must be considered. Research has demonstrated that the presence of passively acquired maternal antibodies significantly interferes with the immune response to many canine vaccines, including CPV [parvo], CDV [distemper], CAV-2 [hepatitis] and rabies vaccines."

They further state on Page 17 that: "Multiple vaccinations with MLV vaccines are required at various ages only to ensure that one dose of the vaccine reaches the puppy's immune system without interference from passively acquired antibody. Two or more doses of killed vaccines (except rabies) and vectored vaccines are often required to induce an immune response, and both doses should be given at a time when the passively acquired antibody can no longer interfere. Thus, when puppies are first vaccinated at 16 weeks (or more) of age (an age when passively acquired antibodies generally don't cause interference), one does of an MLV vaccine, or two doses of a killed vaccine, are adequate to stimulate an immune response."

The AAHA Canine Vaccine Guidelines also declare on Page 17 that: "If a pup fails to respond, primarily due to interference by passively acquired maternal antibody, it is necessary to revaccinate at a later time to ensure adequate immunity."

On Page 13 of the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it lists as the most common reason for vaccination failure is "the puppy has a sufficient amount of passively acquired maternal antibody (PAMA) to block the vaccine......" They elaborate by reporting that at the ages of 14 to 16 weeks of age, "PAMA should be at a level that will not block active immunization in most puppies (>95%) when a reliable product is used."

Vaccine Options & Prevention, MATERNAL ANTIBODY: OUR BIGGEST OBSTACLE http://www.marvistavet.com/html/vaccination_options_prevention.html

Puppies that were born first or were more aggressive at nursing on the first day, will get more maternal antibody than their littermates.

Mother dogs vaccinated at approximately the time of breeding will have the highest antibody levels to pass on to their puppies.

*** REMEMBER, the more maternal antibody a puppy has,
the less likely a vaccine is to work.

It should be noted that giving vaccine more frequently than every 2 weeks will cause interference between the two vaccines and neither can be expected to be effective. This includes giving vaccines for different infections. Vaccines should be spaced 2-4 weeks apart.

It is commonly held that puppies need a certain number of vaccines for protection to be achieved (usually either 3 or 4 is the “magic” number). The number of vaccines given has nothing to do with protection. In order for protection to be achieved, vaccine must be given when it can penetrate maternal antibody.


Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association's 2007 Vaccination Guidelines state on Page 3 that: In situations where, for example, a decision must be made that an individual pet may have to receive only a single core vaccination during its lifetime, the VGG [Vaccination Guidelines Group] would emphasise that this should optimally be given at a time when that animal is most capable of responding immunologically, i.e., at the age of 16 weeks or greater."

continued below
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
continued from above

______________________________________________________________________________
Duration of Immunity: The Rabies Vaccine Challenge - Show #185 Animal Talk Radio Show 7/30/08 http://www.blogtalkradio.com/animal...mmunity-The-Rabies-Vaccine-Challenge-Show-186

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines.htm

Vaccination: An Overview Dr. Melissa Kennedy, DVM360 http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB http://www.thebostonchannel.com:80/news/16410586/detail.html?rss=bos&taf=bos

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free -- CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "
 

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I sure hope people use common sense here. I'd have a bunch of dead Lab pups if I waited until 16 wks to vaccinate. Our local vets have been treating more than their fair share of parvo pups as the result of this kind of thinking.

In order to get puppies out to socialize and get that critical start on training before they hit 3-4 mos (this is recommended by the AKC, APDT folks and AVSAB--behavioral folks), we NEED our puppies to be properly vaccinated.

Anne
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Dog owners need to assesss their puppy's risk of exposure to disease and choose a vaccine schedule based on that consideration (as well as maternal antibody interference) with your veterinarian's input. For instance, people with puppies in daycare or who go to shows or obedience classes have an entirely different risk of early exposure than someone like me who lives in an isolated rural area with no other houses in sight and whose dogs (puppies) don't go out in public.

The information is to provide information on why so many combo vaccines are given to puppies in the first few months of life. Bear in mind that these are all the same full-strength vaccines given to adult dogs.
 

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no way in hell i would wait that long. i honestly believe the trend in waiting too long and NOT vaccinating is going to jump up and bite us in the ass.
 

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no way in hell i would wait that long. i honestly believe the trend in waiting too long and NOT vaccinating is going to jump up and bite us in the ass.
It already is here in WA. I was just at a vet clinic in the dead of winter/cold that told me of a breeder who told their client "absolutely NO vaccinations" on their pup til whatever age. Guess what? Parvo! Another dog (pet shop special) was being released just in front of mine after having been lucky to survive parvo (huge bill). :mad: Kris just refuses to listen to any reason. She's had her earfuls for a year or longer on RTF (think Field trial and other high level performance folks as well as vets, whose pups are on pro trucks before most of ours have been potty trained) but still posted this nonsense there too the other day.

Rural areas are safe? My butt! :mad: Strays and even coyotes are spreading parvo. The UPS or meter reader's truck that visits the "dump" of a house down the road runs over a pile of poo, and drives in spreading all the wealth to others. Our local rescues have had nightmares w/ parvo all winter long (I'm donating Neopar to the one group, however, it's often too late-- after the fact). I was told over 15 yrs ago we were not safe from parvo until we got up above the 4000 ft elevation level in the mountains and it would still be questionable if it was a public camp site. I had 2 pups from my very first litter come down w/ parvo at 12-13 wks (this was before we had as good of vaccines as I have now). Tell that to those folks that it's worth the risk.

Now that said, my 15.5 wk old pup, Envy, went swimming for her first time yesterday. She was at an agility trial last weekend and a (small) dog show at 11 wks old even. No WAY would I take her to a public park and allow that had she not been very well vaccinated against parvo and distemper. :eek: She's had Neopar at 5 wks (neopar was developed initially for the puppy mills!), followed by Progard 5 at 7, 10, 13 wks (both are high titer, low passage that DOES override maternal antibodies safely --- Progard 5 was shown to provide full protection at 12 wks btw in challenge studies). I still run a slight risk of lepto (just showing up in one stream locally). We're doing Lepto vac tomorrow and in 3 wks again. This pup, like my others, has logged at least 3000 miles w/ me safely since she was 7 wks, because of my vaccine protocol--- I'm positive of that.

I've been doing this regime for 6 yrs now, ever since another breeder exposed her 7 wk old pups (you know, those pups that Kris' info says are still to be protected by mom's antibodies?) and brought it home to another *3* wk old litter that was sick w/ in 2 wks as well. 3 litters, 20-some puppies in ICU w/ parvo, 8 died, several had permanent damage.... now tell me what my risks are??? Her vet and a lab breeder/vet put this vaccination program together and ever since, no one has had parvo outbreaks. I couldn't even take my litters to the ACVO's vet clinic (this is where my friend found the parvo) at 7.5 wks for their eye checks let alone my regular vet for well checks, w/o having some protection. My vet gives me full blessings for my protocol and said she'd do the same if she was still breeding.

Anyhow, as deadly as my vaccine program probably sounds to Kris, I've not had ANY immune issues in my pups, nor have any of the others who use this (who breed alot more than I do!). The vets seeing my puppies in different parts of the state/country are sending glowing reports back to me thru the owners, thanking me for caring so much about puppy diseases.

So Kris, until you become a breeder (or even a competitor who would understand the need for early training/socialization), you may want to think again what "good" you are really doing here by putting all this propaganda on every site you manage to get into.

To the rest, yes... weigh your risks. You can have unprotected, unsocialized, and untrained puppies that never develop to their full potentials in life because they've spent their first 4 mos in a bubble, or have well adjusted, successful pups that are protected against deadly preventable diseases. Your choice.
 

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I wonder if there are articles perhaps that I could quote for the exact numbers of puppies who died because their owners felt they were doing the right thing not provide vaccinations for their puppies, as well as subsequent articles showing the rate of temperamental and aggression problems from under socializing puppies.

Oh wait, they are far too numerous to quote.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Dog owners need to assesss their puppy's risk of exposure to disease and choose a vaccine schedule based on that consideration (as well as maternal antibody interference) with a veterinarian's input. For instance, people with puppies in daycare or who go to shows or obedience classes have an entirely different risk of early exposure than someone like me who lives in an isolated rural area with no other houses in sight and whose dogs (puppies) don't go out in public.

The information is to help explain why so many combo vaccines are given to puppies in the first few months of life. Bear in mind that these puppy shots are all the same full-strength vaccines given to adult dogs and the incidents of vaccinal adverse reactions have "higher risk associated with small size [of dog] and multiple inoculations. "

In an August 1, 2008 article in DVM360 entitled Vaccination: An Overview http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=568351,Dr. Melissa Kennedy states that of the two types of vaccinal adverse reactions: "The first is immediate hypersensitivity. This may be a local or systemic response, and is due to pre-existing antibody to the agent. This is the classic "allergic reaction" to the vaccine and can be life-threatening. The second is a delayed response, requiring days of longer to develop. The vaccine, seen as foreign, elicits a significant inflammatory response and is especially true for adjuvanted vaccines. This response can manifest as a granuloma, or more seriously, a fibrosarcoma ."

Further, she reports that "The likelihood of adverse reactions in dogs has been found to correlate with the size of the dog and the number of inoculations given, with higher risk associated with small size and multiple inoculations. "
 

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I would say the majority of the people I know (many competitive obedience people) do not vaccinate their dogs. One, a very good friend said her new pup (arriving middle next month) will not get any vaccines. I find it a bit disturbing.....
 

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I would say the majority of the people I know (many competitive obedience people) do not vaccinate their dogs. One, a very good friend said her new pup (arriving middle next month) will not get any vaccines. I find it a bit disturbing.....
And it is people like this who put other dogs at risk. Those of us who have dogs at home who are elderly or like in my case elderly and has a poor immune system. Makes me sick.
 

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I'm sorry, but IMO this is insane. There is no way in the world I'd wait until 16 weeks to vaccinate. We are seeing increases in cases of parvo in most states. I blame this type of thinking.

I don't believe in over vaccinating, though I'm sure most people reading the WDJ would say I overdo the vaccines. I've not had a case of parvo since 1977 when the disease first hit. I'm known for my dogs living long lives. I had a Lab live to be 16 1/2 which is rare.

As my vet tells me, I must be doing something right.
 

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Amen to that. Not sure if I posted this pic, but here is 15 wk old Envy (5th generation WindyCanyon girl) sacked out after chasing pigeons next to her "favorite-ist" Great granny Gala.... nearly 14 yrs old.

Gala was most definitely "overvaccinated" by Kris' cohorts standards as was her mom who lived to 13.5). I now "only" give vaccines every 2-3 yrs after the puppy boosters at 1 yo, however, so maybe there is a 16 yo in there for me too, down the road. :) Envy's gramps lived to 15.5, despite a busy life in the show ring and field... Amazing isn't it?! ;) Anne
 

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When considering at what age a puppy should begin receiving its core vaccines, consider the information from the American Animal Hospital Association stating that the maternal antibodies in a puppy younger than 16 weeks may interfer with the immune response.
I think it needs to be pointed out to anyone else reading that despite what Kris may imply, AAHA does not endorse waiting until 16 weeks to begin vaccinating puppies. In fact, I would hazard a guess that it would be hard for a hospital to be AAHA certified if it didn't vaccinate puppies until 16 weeks.

AAHA's Revised 2006 vaccination guidelines state for Distemper, Parvo, and Adenovirus vaccines, "All puppies should receive a minimum of 3 doses between the ages of 6 and 16 weeks administered at intervals of 3 to 4 weeks (e.g., at 6, 10, and 14 weeks, or 8, 12, and 16 weeks). The final dose should be administered at 14-16 weeks of age." AAHA Vaccine Guidelines PDF

It's true that maternal antibodies can interfere with vaccines. That's why we use the vaccines schedule we do, to ensure that those whose maternal antibodies have waned are covered early enough.

Kris, I'm glad you're posting and sharing information that you have, because I think overvaccination is a problem and the Rabies Challenge studies are a great thing for animals. However, posting misleading statements and implying that certain organizations agree with such statements is wrong.
 

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Kris, I have to ask.... If your mission is really the Rabies Challenge study (to increase the time between Rabies vaccines in those states still requiring the annual booster primarily), why do you continue to harp on every lab site I visit about all the *other* vaccines and protocols too?

You do NOT wear the same shoes that so many of us do. You have NO idea what it's like to raise a litter of healthy puppies from your dream breeding, only to fear Parvo to come in on your visitors or at the park, vet clinic, or (worse?) after they go home to their families who have fallen head over heels in love...

As I recall, 2 of your pets died in middle age to what you believe was rabies vaccinosis induced (for some reason, I'm thinking the vet actually gave them 2 vaccines within the same year, in which case, it's not the vaccine's fault necessarily, it's the people for not catching it). But I have to ask--- were they well bred? From healthy, long living lines? Heck, did you know ANYTHING about their background? Could you rule OUT your own environment as a possible causal factor to a poor immune system?

I CAN sympathize. I lost an extremely healthy 9.5 yo this past summer to strychnine POISONING (thanks to a stupid, careless human!!!). Some things just happen and we have to live on, as hard as that may seem at the time... but surely, that did not put me on a crusade against all agriculture just because one farm employee was careless. I will never accept her loss, but wow, this was a dog that received all her vaccines regularly, and yes, she died before the ER vet's (who marvelled at her athletic condition) and my own eyes--- to strychnine poisoning in Aug. Some battles you just need to choose... and attacking all vaccines and painting a broad brush over all of us is the WRONG thing to do.

I would MUCH rather have a well adjusted, well socialized dog who died at even 9.5 (like Rosa) but better, at her mom and granny's 13-14 yrs vs a psychotic nutcase that lived to 18 because it was kept in a sterile bubble.... or worse, losing an innocent puppy to something as preventable as parvo or distemper. Anne
 

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I appreciate the pro-vaccine responses. I was a vet tech for 10 years and the only adverse reactions we saw to vaccines was a 24 hour sleepiness probably caused by a small spike in temperature. Having worked through a parvo outbreak and seen the havoc caused by an unvaccinated dog in a fight with a raccoon, unless I had a known immune deficient dog I wouldn't dream of not vaccinating. The reason for multiple puppy vaccinations is not be able to be sure when the mother's antibodies are going to "run out". That window can be deadly.
In addition, that "full-strength" thing...vaccines don't work the same way as antibiotics or per weight medications. They are the smallest amount of antigen (I believe) that will cause an immune response and that response turns out to be of the same type in adults and infants (human vaccines are the same). To have a reduced amount might result in no response at all thus...it wouldn't work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
And it is people like this who put other dogs at risk. Those of us who have dogs at home who are elderly or like in my case elderly and has a poor immune system. Makes me sick.
If your dogs are properly vaccinated, they should not be at risk for contracting the core canine diseases from other dogs. A titer check would help determine if there are enough antibodies to the core canine diseases to give your dogs immunity.
 

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If your dogs are properly vaccinated, they should not be at risk for contracting the core canine diseases from other dogs. A titer check would help determine if there are enough antibodies to the core canine diseases to give your dogs immunity.
A dog with a compromised immune system is really not going to matter much if she is vaccinated or not. My older gals immune system is SHOT.
 

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I am just a regular dog owner and not a dog expert and reading this I really don't know what to believe. I want Chuck to live a long healthy life and now I don't know if I've done him harm by following my vet's recommendations and getting his puppy shots. Is he going to get cancer because of me?
 

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And it is people like this who put other dogs at risk. Those of us who have dogs at home who are elderly or like in my case elderly and has a poor immune system. Makes me sick.

Is it possibly that your dog has a poor immune system BECAUSE of all the vaccinations it received? I am reading up on vaccinations and finding the number of adverse reactions scary, to say the least. I don't know why dogs need yearly vaccinations when people don't? We only get shots when we need them, after our basic shots as very young children. I'm just saying it's something to consider, which I'm doing now. My dog had a reaction after receiving his rabies shot, Lyme shot and the DHLPP shot all in one visit, and I am terrified as to what kind of reaction he might have if we do it again.
 

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Is it possibly that your dog has a poor immune system BECAUSE of all the vaccinations it received? I am reading up on vaccinations and finding the number of adverse reactions scary, to say the least. I don't know why dogs need yearly vaccinations when people don't? We only get shots when we need them, after our basic shots as very young children. I'm just saying it's something to consider, which I'm doing now. My dog had a reaction after receiving his rabies shot, Lyme shot and the DHLPP shot all in one visit, and I am terrified as to what kind of reaction he might have if we do it again.

No i honestly don't believe so.
 
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