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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, I was previously mb05j on the other forum, but now yellowlab. Wondering what some of you think about Bailey now at 25 1/2 months. Hes been pointed out for a few months and just waiting for majors now. Any opinions?

p.s.: ignore his tail, he was in the midst of barking at another dog on the other side of the fence and went into macho mode.

 

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as I mentioned in the other thread, an ok picture does not help.

Two things I like: his reach of neck and his tight feet.

For me, he is not 'enough' dog, generally lacks substance, coat, bone, second thigh.

What do you think of your dog? I really don't like picking apart the faults on someone's dog, especially when they don't understand, and I don't know you well enough. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
as I mentioned in the other thread, an ok picture does not help.

Two things I like: his reach of neck and his tight feet.

For me, he is not 'enough' dog, generally lacks substance, coat, bone, second thigh.

What do you think of your dog? I really don't like picking apart the faults on someone's dog, especially when they don't understand, and I don't know you well enough. ;)
I tend to agree with you about him lacking substance. His bone is definitely finer than his dad. This has definitely been a peeve of mine when I look at him. As for substance or as you put it "enough" dog, I agree with this as well; but its strange, because he weighs about 86 lbs. now at 22.5 inches, and as you can see is in phenomenal condition and is very, very muscular in person. Ive spoken to a breeder who told me that her Westminster breed winning lab is just 92 lbs. so I think maybe he looks less substantial, because he doesnt have alot of coat?

Anyway, I give you permission to pick apart my dog. Its all part of the learning experience.
 

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Two things I like: his reach of neck and his tight feet.
Then I will say this. This is pretty well what I like about this dog.

If were my dog, or if I bred this dog, I would not put him in the ring, nor would I allow a puppy buyer to do so. I would personally not consider this dog breeding quality, and thus would see no use to show him. Love him and train him, absolutely.

I get photos all of the time from my puppy people asking me if their puppies might be successful, thinking that NOW they want to show, because everyone tells them how beautiful their dog is. I tell them that if they were show quality I would have kept him/her. Got the one I'll attach here just a few days ago. There's no shame in owning a pet dog from a show breeder.

What was your intention when you purchased him?

 

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I wasn't trying to be harsh. I'm saying that if he's recieved AKC points, I'm assuming he's deserving of them....which this picture doesn't show at all! With that in mind, I don't want to comment on the dog in this picture. Please, please, please take a better pic and repost :)
 

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He has a nice reach of neck and seems to have a nice head.
For me, there is not enough dog, not enough angulation front or rear (he appears to have a long neck because his shoulders are quite steep). Not in love with the croup or the tail and coat.
HOWEVVER, he is short coupled, he is just longer than square, he is balanced front to rear and he likely is a clean mover because of it. Many all breed judges are drawn to this type of dog and many like to find a yellow dog when indoors. I'm not surprised he has his singles although the majors will be harder to find if he is up against a dog who also moves clean but has proper angulation and/or better type. Dogs without much angulation very often have nice sidegait and many judges make that final pick on the last go-round.
 

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What is your breeder's opinion? How quickly did your dog get singles? Was it a bunch of 1-pt singles? I'm not sure that this dog doesn't hold his tail up while moving. From looking at his croup, it tells me he does. That's major fault in a Lab. He seriously lacks coat and front and rear angulation. If I were you, I'd speak to the breeder and go from there. Does the breeder know he's being shown?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
What is your breeder's opinion? How quickly did your dog get singles? Was it a bunch of 1-pt singles? I'm not sure that this dog doesn't hold his tail up while moving. From looking at his croup, it tells me he does. That's major fault in a Lab. He seriously lacks coat and front and rear angulation. If I were you, I'd speak to the breeder and go from there. Does the breeder know he's being shown?
Ok, there is a reason I said to ignore the tail, that being because it is not always like that, as I said he was barking at another dog on the other side of the fence. He only has 1 1pointer and 4 2 pointers, some very close to majors. Majors in Florida require 20 males. He also has numerous reserves and best in shows in matches and IABCA shows. I think I will post a better picture in the future, as this one obviously didnt do him any justice.

I will agree with you about the coat though he used to have a better coat till he got mites.
 

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20 males is not all that high when you're talking Labs, but majors will be an issue. If that photo doesn't do him justice, then post a better one. What kind of mites did he get? They really did a number on his coat. What's his pedigree like? Knowing some of the lines might help you and others get an idea as to development. Good luck with your baby.
 

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For me, he is really straight in the front, and doesn't have much substance overall to him. His tail is carried pretty high too. I'd personally like to see more front, and better turn of stifle. Pretty moderate boy...
 

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Latest show picture.
That's a horrible picture, he's been stacked wrong, and is being baited too far back, throws him way off.

I agree with Dani, not much to him. Tail carriage is plain strange, the roll over his withers is indicative of an upright front (I have one of those) I'd like more, just more of everything, except leg.

I wouldn't show him until he recovered from the mange, and grew some coat too :)

Try taking a picture of him with someone baiting him, not strung up by a noose, see where he places himself, and carries himself, those are the best to judge by.
 

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Can you tell me, because I feel like we're berating your dog.

What do you think of him? Do you see how he adds up in the ring in comaparison to the other dogs there? Do you understand what we're saying? Have you shown dogs before? What is your dog's pedigree? Ask his breeder. They should be able to give you the pros and cons of this dog. What do you understand about structure? I get the feeling, and no offence intended, that you really don't know what parts make up what we're talking about.

I can say that if this dog were showing around here, he would not be successful.
 

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There are two hats a dog must wear: show dog and stud dog. The quality of your dog depends on which goal is most important to you.

If he is a show dog, his limitations would be his high tail set, short upper arm and lack of coat and second thigh. Things a judge might like (depending on the judge) are his short upper arm (seriously), length of neck, head and expression, solid topline, good conditioning and overall balance. This dog looks like he presents himself well and that goes a long way in the show ring. He also lacks angulation, but it is balanced front and rear, sets himself well and many judges prefer the movement of a dog without much angulation, right or wrong.

Now if he is a stud dog, I have a lot more problem with him. Breeders deal with breed drift and there are things that are pretty set in the breed that we like to steer clear of. Two of these are short upper arms and lack of bone and substance. If I am to look at this dog as a breeding prospect, I am going to be much more picky about him. He lacks upper arm, he lacks keel, he lacks bone, he is a bit long coupled (I think from the pic), lacks coat, don't like the tail set, don't like the tail, he lacks rear angulation, and he lacks second thigh. In a nutshell, a boy must be bang on to be considered a good stud dog.

This is why wins under breeder judges are more coveted. They recognize more than a generic dog. Many dogs who win in the all breed ring are generic dogs who may lack quality. The resemble a labrador and they don't really have any glaring faults, but they don't especially have a lot of quality and type about them either.

An example. I was at a show last weekend with two young puppies. The first is very typey and I have had a couple of breeder judges suggest that I should bring her to them this summer because they love her. When I brought her to the show last weekend, her first, the breeders there clamoured over her and loved her. She got dumped both days she was shown and didn't even get a look.

***** number two is a nice ***** who has good structure but hasn't the type of the first *****. I keep her for her pedigree and because she does have good points. I entered her the one day and she went BPIB/BPIG. Go figure.

The best dog doesn't always win in the ring. Winning is fun, don't get me wrong, but breeders can not let the judges pick their stock. If you have a dog who moves well, presents himself well, and hasn't much wrong with him, then he will do well in the ring. But for breeding, we want something more than nothing much wrong with him. We want a dog that completely fills our eye and just screams LABRADOR!

So the moral of the story is, if you want to show your boy, you certainly have every right to and you might just get those majors. If you are showing him as a stepping stone to having him bred, you might be disappointed. There is nothing wrong with showing a nice boy and many breeders get their start that way, with a decent boy to get their feet wet with.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Can you tell me, because I feel like we're berating your dog.

What do you think of him? Do you see how he adds up in the ring in comaparison to the other dogs there? Do you understand what we're saying? Have you shown dogs before? What is your dog's pedigree? Ask his breeder. They should be able to give you the pros and cons of this dog. What do you understand about structure? I get the feeling, and no offence intended, that you really don't know what parts make up what we're talking about.

I can say that if this dog were showing around here, he would not be successful.
What do I think of him. He has a gorgeously sculpted head, with nice stop and length of muzzle, and great ears and ear set, nice length of neck made even longer by having to much shoulder layback. Upper arms are long actually, though hard to tell by the picture. He lacks undercoat. Distance from withers to elbow is equal to distance from elbows to floor. He has well let down hocks, solid pasterns, and tight feet. He has splendid in-line movement, a nice wide front and robust rear looking from behind. He has a nice level topline. He has sufficient bone by all breed show standards, probably not by specialty standards. He carries his tail high at times, but not always. He has good depth of brisket extending below the elbows. He is short coupled. Probably could use a bit more turn of stifle, but I dont think he has bad turn of stifle. I also like his rich brown color. To me he does look small sometimes in the ring. He does weigh 86lbs. and is on the bottom of the height standard so I dont know why he looks Like he lacks substance. I would like more spring of rib, but this may come with age. Also, his tail is wrapped and has a twizzle at the end. His tail doesnt come straight off the topline, though Ive heard that that is a fad, and that a lab shoud have a bit of a croup.
 
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