Just Labradors banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
879 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We've had our 4 month old lab on Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy since we got her 2 months ago. That's what the breeder had her on so we stayed with it. I had a private trainer come today (great session----but that's another topic)......she advised feeding our lab Nutro Max or Natural Choice. She says to always make sure the first ingredient reads: "Chicken MEAL or Lamb MEAL. The main thing is MEAL." I want to feed my puppy the best quality and most natural food possible; whatever is best for her. I don't care what it costs. Any suggestions? Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,548 Posts
Personally I wouldn't feed anything by Nutro but that's because they lied to me and I don't trust them.

I would and do feed ProPlan so that's what I recommend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,913 Posts
ProPlan and Nutro are pretty good foods (I've fed both in the past with success) but if you want "natural" you can do one better. There are so many good foods out there. This website is really helpful: www.dogfoodproject.com

High quality brands off the top of my head: Eagle Pack, Canidae, Timberwolf Organics, Solid Gold, Innova, California Natural, Fromm's, Merrick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,514 Posts
Any of them are decent foods. But if they are my only choices I'd go with ProPlan.

A note on foods that are "natural" or "organic" etc. You really have to understand how food companies lable and get a full understanding of the USDA and AAFCO version of them.

"The term "natural" is often used on pet food labels, although that term does not have an official definition either. For the most part, "natural" can be construed as equivalent to a lack of artificial flavors, artificial colors, or artificial preservatives in the product. As mentioned above, artificial flavors are rarely employed anyway. Artificial colors are not really necessary, except to please the pet owner's eye. If used, they must be from approved sources, the same as for human foods. Especially for high-fat dry products, some form of preservative must be used to prevent rancidity. Natural-source preservatives, such as mixed tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), can be used in place of artificial preservatives. However, they may not be as effective.

"Natural" is not the same as "organic." The latter term refers to the conditions under which the plants were grown or animals were raised. There are no official rules governing the labeling of organic foods (for humans or pets) at this time, but the United States Department of Agriculture is developing regulations dictating what types of pesticides, fertilizers and other substances can be used in organic farming.
"

Also when it comes to organic and claims of Free Range one has to really be careful again. Free Range may not mean what you think it means.

Product labeling is a very tricky business.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
I feed Canidae and have had wonderful results with it. I know a couple of people have recommended Pro Plan, but check the ingredients. I was on the website and both the Chicken/Rice and Lamb/Rice formulas (for puppies) have corn or corn gluten as their third or fourth ingredient. I also checked their adult formulas...same thing. Every one of their foods that I checked have a substantial amount of corn products. Another strike against them (IMO) is that their main protein is listed as a whole protein as opposed to a meal. This means it is inclusive of water...once the water has been removed for processing, there will be a substantially lower percentage of the protein. Most likely these foods have a higher percentage of grain (corn, wheat) than they do protein.

I agree with your trainer about looking for a food with a named protein meal as its first ingedient. Trickster posted the website for the Dog Food Project. It is really informative...if you are looking to feed a high quality kibble, start there and arm yourself with some info. Also, you will not find the better foods in your typical grocery store or pet supply store (PetCo, Pet Smart, etc.) When you find a food you want to try, check out their website. They should have a section to find a dealer near you.

Here is a comparison of the Pro Plan LB Puppy formula & Canidae....you figure out which is better! :)

Pro PLan LB Puppy (from their website)


Ingredients:
Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea fiber, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine) , animal digest, calcium phosphate, dried egg product, fish oil, salt, potassium chloride, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.
F-4457

Canidae All Stages (from their website)

All Natural Ingredients
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,548 Posts
Well I had my dogs on Canidae and they lost all their hair, developed hot spots, bald spots, gunk in the ears, hematomas of the ears, yeast in their feet, licking feet, split nails and anal gland problems.

Yep, its a better food all right. ;) Give me ProPlan any day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,514 Posts
therapydawg said:
Pro PLan LB Puppy (from their website)[/color]

Ingredients:
Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea fiber, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine) , animal digest, calcium phosphate, dried egg product, fish oil, salt, potassium chloride, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.
F-4457

Canidae All Stages (from their website)

All Natural Ingredients
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.
I try not to let those items in red scare me too much. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them. My guess is you are mislead as to what they are and their uses. I look at the guaranteed analysis first, ingredients second.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,548 Posts
Oh and there is NOTHING wrong with by-products, as long as its labeled.

It's not meat, but the organ matter from the chicken, the guts, liver, heart, brains, intestines, stomach etc. I think this is a human thing, because those organs are always the first to be eaten by wild canids, wild felines, and pretty much any other. They don't go for the 'meaty haunch', they go for the gut and pull out all that gooey stuff and eat it.

Meat byproducts in dog food by law do not include hair, horn, teeth or hooves, feathers or manure. It does include organs, including the lungs, spleen, intestines, brains, kidneys and liver, and in the case of chicken byproducts will include the head and feet. About 50 percent of a slaughtered cow will not go for human use, most of this leftover goes into the pet food industry, not because it's unhealthy. How many of us rush out to the grocery store to eat a daily meal with tripe (stomach), chitlins (intestines), and scrambled brains? Believe it or not, while organ meats are gross to think of eating to humans, they are also extremely high in natural vitamins and minerals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
183 Posts
Jax's breeder Beechcroft Labradors was adamant that I do NOT change his food from Pro Plan Chicken and Rice. I have listened to Mary and Jax has been doing very well on the Pro Plan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
labby said:
Oh and there is NOTHING wrong with by-products, as long as its labeled.

It's not meat, but the organ matter from the chicken, the guts, liver, heart, brains, intestines, stomach etc. I think this is a human thing, because those organs are always the first to be eaten by wild canids, wild felines, and pretty much any other. They don't go for the 'meaty haunch', they go for the gut and pull out all that gooey stuff and eat it.

Meat byproducts in dog food by law do not include hair, horn, teeth or hooves, feathers or manure. It does include organs, including the lungs, spleen, intestines, brains, kidneys and liver, and in the case of chicken byproducts will include the head and feet. About 50 percent of a slaughtered cow will not go for human use, most of this leftover goes into the pet food industry, not because it's unhealthy. How many of us rush out to the grocery store to eat a daily meal with tripe (stomach), chitlins (intestines), and scrambled brains? Believe it or not, while organ meats are gross to think of eating to humans, they are also extremely high in natural vitamins and minerals.
I guess it depends on where you get your quote (this is from the dog food project ):

The parts used can be obtained from any slaughtered fowl, so there is no control over the quality and consistency of individual batches. Poultry byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than chicken meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones, organs etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.

It is not a horrible ingredient, just of inconsistent nutritional value.

cinderbaylabs....what exactly is the purpose of whole grain corn, whole grain wheat or corn gluten meal in dog food? From what I have read & researched, they are inexpensive forms of fillers...but they do have a suspected higher incidence of being the cause of allergies. They don't scare me, I would just prefer that if they are in the food I feed my dog, they are not primary ingredients. In the case of the Pro Plan LB puppy food, the first ingredient is chicken, which is inclusive of water. Manufacturers list the protein in this form so that they can list it first giving the impression that there is more chicken than grains. However, once the water is removed from the chicken (which it must be in order to process it) then it would be placed more likely around 4 or 5 on the ingredient list. This puts your grains and by-product meal at a higher percentage...I prefer not to feed my dog a food that has a higher percentage of corn gluten meal than chicken. IMO Canidae is better than Pro Plan, in Laura's opinion, Pro Plan is better than Canidae. I am sorry Laura's dogs did not do well on Canidae, but that is why it is important to try different foods....just because Laura's dogs did poorly doesn't mean everyone's will.

I posted the ingredients so they could compare them easily and highlighted those that I consider inferior or questionable. If you read my post, you will see that I did recommend that they do some research and determine for themselves what foods to try. I used the Pro Plan LB puppy formula because that is what the OP said they had been using (it was not a personal attack on Laura or her opinion). I do look at the guaranteed analysis, but you need to look at the ingredients too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,514 Posts
Glad you asked.

First you have to understand what whole grain corn is.

In dog food it is the ground up version of the entire "grain" as pictured above. Nothing left out.
It is highly digestable in its ground form (contrairy to popular belief), it has very high amounts of linoleic acid (EFA), omega 6 and a sourse of carbs (also needed contrary to belief-they provide energy) and they are a sourse of protein.
Some of the same above applies to the gluten meal of corn. Very high values of protien.
Also it has been said that corn has the highest level of antioxidants than any other grain.

Just the use of whole grains period are because they are easily digestable source of complex carbs, fiber and energy in both the canine and human diet.
Whole grains are from what I have understood are more expensive because they cost more to refine. (they must be because I eat a very high fiber diet filled with whole grains and the food I buy is not cheep).
AACC (American Association of Cereal Chemists) definition: "Whole grains shall consist of the intact, ground, cracked or flaked caryopsis, whose principal anatomical components - the starchy endosperm, germ and bran - are present in the same relative proportions as they exist in the intact caryopsis.”
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,548 Posts
Ah but Kim is your source WDJ or the Dog Food Project? After all, they are the authorities on the subject. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,364 Posts
Honestly, if your dog is doing fine on the food he is on don't change it.
Why fix something that isn't broken?

There are a ton of good foods out there and not so good foods. Some dogs do great on the "higher" quality higher priced one and others do well on the "lower" quality ones.

I had to do some experimenting to find out what Buck would do best on as a puppy. Solid Gold gave him runny poops. Nutro made his coat dull and made him smell bad no matter how much I bathed him.
We have finally settled on California Natural Chicken Meal and Rice (adult food). This works for Buck. His coat is great. His poops are great. He doesn't smell bad. etc etc.

I would not have gone on a food hunt if he didn't have any problems. If your puppy is doing fine I would not mess around with the food till he is ready for an adult food.

In the mean time...do your research and get prepared for the adult food change :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
No Laura, quite apparently you are the authority on all things dog related...that is quite obvious from all of your posts. Just because someone has a different opinion does not make them wrong. Once again, my dog did not do well on a food with corn in it...whether it is whole grain corn or not, I would prefer that the main ingredient in my dog's food is a protein in the meal form. That is my opinion....I thought that was what the OP was looking for....other's opinions on what they consider to be a high quality kibble.

Again, look at my post...I encouraged them to do their own research and decide for themselves. I would never base any decision I made about my dog's care on any person's post from this board or any other....not even yours. I would take their suggestions and do my own research. Hopefully that is what the bebopalula will do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,514 Posts
labby said:
Ah but Kim is your source WDJ or the Dog Food Project? After all, they are the authorities on the subject. ;)
UGH absolutely not. Places like that base info on opinion and use scare tactics to sell their point or message.

Instead I listen to Pet and Human Nutritionist. One human nutritionist is one I know personally who specializes in sports nutrition, supplements and and homeopathic/alternative medicine. So I would hope the info he give would be fact not based on opinions :)
We have someone who claims to be in holistic pet nutrition near me but I don't know her and she charges just to consult.

When holistic and alternative became the 'in' thing that is when we seen it applied to pet fod and the industry became cut-throat. Food bashing and trashing ingredients. Heck we see it in our food. Eggs are good, NO eggs are bad. NO their good again. HELL I don't know but I still eat them!

People can feed what they want, I've been down this road. I feel I know can make a much more educated decision on what goes in my mouth and the mouths of my dogs from doing that research. Food has become a passion for me because of my own health and that of my dogs. Though my dogs eat much better than I do. But before someone claims a product or ingredient is bad or detrimental to the diet they better have REAL reason to back it up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,548 Posts
therapydawg said:
No Laura, quite apparently you are the authority on all things dog related...that is quite obvious from all of your posts.
You obviously have no idea of who I am. I am the first to claim NOT to be any type of authority. Yes I have over 30 years of owning, feeding and training Labradors but authority? HA! Hardly.

What I am is someone who does a lot of research and picks the brains of people who are considered authorities. Then I think for myself. I don't allow anyone to form my opinions for me. My opinions are based on fact and that over 30 years of experience. What I hate to see is anyone blindly being led due to unscientific opinion/information found on some webpage. I was one of those blind persons years ago and I wised up. My dogs suffered for it.

My bottom line on most dog food issues is feed what works and don't be influenced by what other people think of your food choice. They aren't the ones who are paying the bills.

One of the most successful Labrador breeders feeds Dog Chow. While it wouldn't be my first choice, it obviously works for her so who am I (or who is anyone else) to tell her that she should be feeding something else?
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top