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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last night I went with a friend to evaluate a litter of Lab pups, 5 1/2 weeks old. My friend has done a fair amount of research and decided to go with Labs and asked a lot of questions of the people she talked to. She said she had reservations about this person just based on their phone conversation. This is how the 'meeting' went.

Drive up (about 20 yards from a fairly busy road) and all 8 pups were running loose with their mom, and the stud dog tied to a cable. Eight year old kid racing around on his bike yelling at the pups "Don't bite my tires!" Zoom.....zoom....

Mom is not an good example, conformationally speaking, (read butt ugly). Dad is fairly nice but about 40-50 pounds overweight.

We sat down with the pups and I noticed right away that their coats were wretchedly dry, scabs peeling off, and each pup had feces caked somewhere on it's body. All did seem happy enough, did not mind being picked up or restrained on it's back in my arms.

The conversation with the BYB (in part):

Me: How old is the mom?

BYB: Just turned 5 years old.

Me: How many litters has she had?

BYB This is her fourth.

A little more playing with the pups...no apparent fleas, but their gums looked kind of pale to me.

Me: Do you have all the health clearences on the mom and dad?

BYB: Yes I do.

Me: So you have their hips, elbows, eyes and heart clearances?

BYB: No, I will never do hips on a dog. I sold a pup once and the owners tried to sue me because his hips went bad. But the dog was 145 pounds. That's why his hips were bad. Nope I will never x-ray hips....I do not want to get sued! What were those other tests you mentioned, I never heard of them.

Me: Oh, just some more health tests that most people like to see done on the adults.

BYB: Oh.

More playing with the pups. I noticed they had a huge pile of dog food on the kennel floor, both the adults and the pups occasionally went in and nibble a kibble or two.

Me: What do you feed them?

BYB: Good stuff, Purina Dog Chow!

Me: Not puppy food?

BYB: Nope.

Me: Do you know the lineage of the parents?

BYB: Yah, I bred both.

Me: Can we see their registration papers?

BYB: *Looks blankly back at me* "Ummm, sure, don't know if I can find them though.

BYB goes to look for the papers and I tell my friend "Run far and run fast". BYB returns and says he can not find any of the papers. (He knew we were coming).

Me: Do you have a guarantee on the pups should anything go wrong or the pup needs to be returned?

BYB: NO ONE has EVER returned a pup, or had any problems with any of the litters I have bred over the years.

Me: Except the guy that wanted to sue you?

BYB: That was HIS fault for letting the dog get so fat!

Me: O.K.....but what if the pup needs to be returned, or something is wrong?

BYB: The vet check that you as a new puppy owner will tell you that there is nothing wrong with the pup. No one has ever had problems with my pups.

Me: Alrighty then. Do the pups have any shots when they come home to the new owner?

BYB: Of course! They have had all their shots....well the first shots.

Me: What shots does your vet give?

BYB: I do not know...

We beat a hasty exit. I asked my friend how much the guy is charging for the pups. $300.00. They are going to look at a Lubberline Martingale pup (or grandkid perhaps) from near Grass lake here in Michigan. I asked how much those pups were. $900.00.

I handed the print out from Labby's site on the difference between a $300.00 pup and a $800.00 pup.

Sigh.....apparently it is still up to my friends husband about how much they want to pay. After all says the husband, why pay that much for a dog only to have it run out on the road and get hit by a car?

Really, these are good people and love their pets, but oiy.....I just have to shake my head sometimes.
 

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We beat a hasty exit. I asked my friend how much the guy is charging for the pups. $300.00. They are going to look at a Lubberline Martingale pup (or grandkid perhaps) from near Grass lake here in Michigan. I asked how much those pups were. $900.00.
If they are from I Spy Labs...your friend will be getting a great pup!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If they are from I Spy Labs...your friend will be getting a great pup!
Yes, it is them. I just looked at the pedigree and was impressed. I really wished I could go along and see the pups, but I am showing all weekend and that was the only time they could go!
 

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Your a good friend you know what your looking for..tbh i hope your friends realise a well bred pup will probably be cheaper in the long run than one thats BY bred..not saying all BY Bred pups are ill but it heightens the chances
 

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Yes, it is them. I just looked at the pedigree and was impressed. I really wished I could go along and see the pups, but I am showing all weekend and that was the only time they could go!
Allison is awesome and she is great to work with. Trust me...she's no BYB. Very active in showing and takes great care of her dogs.
 

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I hope your friends get the pup from the second litter. So many just see that difference of $600 and think it's a waste of money, and then the first instance of bad allergies or elbow dysplasia or hip dysplasia and soon they've spent another $1000 on medical expenses. And when we get a pup from a good breeder, other than annual exams, you tend not to spend any more money.

I was talking to one of my puppy families about buying their second pup and we were talking about just that. Hudler and Maddy didn't come from the best breeders and oddly enough both have had some medical issues. Grace, who came from an excellent breeder, has only had one thing happen which was due to grass seeds infecting her feet.
 

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After all says the husband, why pay that much for a dog only to have it run out on the road and get hit by a car?
A good breeder may not sell them a pup with that kind of attitude. I wouldn't.
 

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After all says the husband, why pay that much for a dog only to have it run out on the road and get hit by a car?
I actually had someone say that to me once on the phone. "I don't want to pay $1000 since it will probably just get hit by a car like the last one."

Their ears were blistered by the time I hung up on them.
 

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OK I'm going to avoid so many of the issues like owners who figure it's a standard risk to have their pets hit by cars. And I hope your friends get a pup that they love and provide a good home for. I also hope the BYB stops what he's doing (I know, good luck).

But I have to say that BYB or not, I feel for those pups and I hope they all find love in their little lives. It's not their fault. We pull too many of them from the shelter into rescue, and that's not even close to all of them...
 

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I agree with Ursula, I feel so sorry for all those little babies :( That BYB is an idiot!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
A good breeder may not sell them a pup with that kind of attitude. I wouldn't.
Ya, I agree. They have asked for one of my pups from Kodi (when I breed her) and if that time comes, I am going to have to get very frank with them. The wife (a very good friend of mine) does not like that attitude and has replied to her husband that the pup should never even be in a situation where it could run anywhere near the road. But all it takes is the husband making a mistake one for a tragedy to happen.

Whenever it comes to them actually getting any pup I am going to have to level with them about letting a pup loose in the yard especially since they are so close to a busy road (and within a 1/2 mile (sight distance) of I-94). As far as I know it has been decades since either one (if they have ever) had a puppy. Previously, they have always "found" dogs, or dogs have been dropped off on their doorstep as adults already.

Sigh, I am trying to walk the line between educating in a level headed rationale way and saying what I really think in anger (and possibly turning them off and not listening at all).
 

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Drive up (about 20 yards from a fairly busy road) and all 8 pups were running loose with their mom, and the stud dog tied to a cable.
I started getting queasy right about here.
 

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I just spent a loooong time the other day with a woman who was getting a Lab pup from a breeder in MI. I had been to their site and NOT impressed so I had to try and delicately give them my input.
Told them how important knowing the dogs that are being bred, the history, lines, pedigree, health...etc. She knew she wanted the more stocky "English" type. I got her into my office and showed her some pics of my crew, dogs in their peds and some local breeders.
Two days later she called me thanking me from the bottom of her heart. Something was tugging at her about this other breeder and after talking to me her gut was telling her no. She called one of the names I gave her and I believe she is on the list for a pup.

It is times like those, it makes you feel so good. You got through. Sadly far to many fall for these $350 breeders who can talk the talk.
 

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You are a wonderful friend but you will be doing them both a huge favor if you are totally frank with them about getting a puppy. The bottomline is, "you get what you pay for". Deciding to get a puppy of any breed should never be a spur of the moment decision. It is a commitment for a lifetime, just like having children. I knew I wanted a lab puppy for a long time and read everything I could on the breed and then started looking at breeder's web sites, reading articles on the AKC and LRC sites to educate myself on what to expect from the puppy and what the puppy needed from us. I can't thank all of the breeders enough who take time to post information on their sites to help educate the public and potential dog owners. I have learned so much from so many. Good breeders are a gift to all of us who love labby dogs. With all the health issues of large breeds it is so important to do everything possible to mitigate the possiblility of your puppy developing elbow, hip or eye problems later in its life. I know the initial price of a good puppy may seem high, but if a buyer takes the time to understand what it costs the breeder to produce a litter of quality puppies they will realize that they are really getting a good deal. I will never regret our decision to work with a reputable breeder who only sells healthy, quality puppies. And I always speak up when someone is talking about buying a puppy of any breed. The only way to slow down the profiting from puppy mills and BYB is to educate people on the risks and problems with the puppies they produce. We will never get rid of them entirely but we can each do our part to discourage people from purchasing their dog or puppy from them. Sorry for the soapbox but this issue just gets me going. How you kept from giving that BYB an earful is a testament to your patience. My heart breaks for the puppies, mother, father and all future puppies too. :(
 
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