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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
apollo is still terrified of sam. Sam called me today to say that he stopped by home today to get his checkbook and when apollo saw sam he just flat out peed himself! :eek: Why why why? We are working with Apollo to associate Sam with positive things. It seems like we are progressing, but when its just Sam and Apollo, Apollo goes ape ****! Sam spoke very calm and gently with Apollo and took him outside so that he could pee OUTSIDE and apollo screamed and screamed and screamed. Once again, people were staring. So Sam felt maybe it was best to just put apollo back inside, even though he hadn't peed outside yet. Well as soon as apollo gets inside, guess what he does? he pees! again! right on the carpet. Sam scritches him on the ears and then he wags his tail and looks all happy, then screams again! I am getting really discouraged. Apollo isn't going anywhere, we aren't gunna give him away, but I am worried that we will be doomed to a life with a dog thats terrified of his "daddy". We will be starting the shy dog classes at the humane society once we move in May. Also we will be getting a personal trainer to try and help with these issues. Right now I'm not so much upset that apollo is scared of men, I'm upset that apollo is afraid of sam. I really want this to work out. What should we do? I feel like we are doing everything we can right now. We can't get apollo to a trainer and those specialty classes until after we move. Ugh. what do we do?
 
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What about Sam giving Apollo a treat or something Apollo really likes before Sam really gets a chance to do anything else when he gets into the house??
That way he may not be as scared when hes alone with him?
 

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I'm going to go out on a limb and ask if Sam has changed anything scent-wise about him. New cologne? New Laundry soap? New soap? Any scent that is new...or anything that is new. Perhaps Apollo is reacting to a scent that reminds him of something bad. We had a foster that had submissive problems after the man who adopted her changed his cologne.

Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks LabbymommyKathryn we will try that.

Right now Sam:

Is the only one to feed apollo
The only one to give apollo treats
The only one to brush apollo
The only one to walk apollo

It seems like Apollo's fear of Sam is only getting worse. Im really upset by this. I don't feel like we are making any progress, I feel like we are regressing. Thats a good idea Dani, but nothing scent wise has changed about Sam. I had to think about it for a few minutes but I'm positive nothing has.
 

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Going off of what Dani said, I had a foster that freaked out in certain situations, ie, he bit everyone that walked in through the front door (really long sad story- he had a head trauma from being kicked by a horse, then was abused by men, etc- he was PTS).

Make a log of EVERYTIME Apollo "freaks" out - include the date, time of day, what Sam did, how he came in the house, how he talked to apollo, where they were in the house, what sam was wearing, every possible detail you can come up with.

You might see a pattern after a couple of weeks. Maybe then you can start to change things to avoid certain stimuli.

Also, when you get to Saint Louis or before- you might want to talk to a vet about a short term dose of doggy prozac or the likes- just for an adjustment period. You may need a little something to get him to relax in order to help him see that Sam isn't going to kill him.

You can order rescue remedy online- that's been helpful for some foster dogs and dogs that are afraid of storms.

Unfortunately, using the choke collar may have set you back a ways. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
gabbys mom said:
Also, when you get to Saint Louis or before- you might want to talk to a vet about a short term dose of doggy prozac or the likes- just for an adjustment period. You may need a little something to get him to relax in order to help him see that Sam isn't going to kill him.
I am afraid we might have to get him on meds TEMPORARILY. I don't wanna do it, but if it will help apollo we might just have to do it

gabbys mom said:
Make a log of EVERYTIME Apollo "freaks" out - include the date, time of day, what Sam did, how he came in the house, how he talked to apollo, where they were in the house, what sam was wearing, every possible detail you can come up with.
EXCELLENT idea. We will certainly do this. I'm sure it will help when we get a trainer to show them the log.

gabbys mom said:
You can order rescue remedy online- that's been helpful for some foster dogs and dogs that are afraid of storms.
Thinking I'm gunna have to buy that stuff. I hope it helps

gabbys mom said:
Unfortunately, using the choke collar may have set you back a ways. :(
Sigh, I am afraid you are right. I wish we wouldn't have used the choke chain on him. Only reason we used it was because he kept slipping his collar (and running away from sam) we had no idea about those greyhound collars so we thought the choke chain was our only option. We got the greyhound collar and I'm happy to say he is totally fine with it (yes!). No more dangerous slipping out of his collar. Sigh....I am kicking myself for using the choke though.
 

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I have no advice, however, the good thing is that Apollo is not acting aggressive toward Sam. May is just around the corner, so hopefully you can get the help Sam needs very soon. Hang in there (I know, easier said than done).
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I just hope that apollo doesn't get agressive with sam. I don't think he will, but its always a possibility. We are definitly gunna need a trainer to help us calm apollo down around sam. I am just nervous thinking about how much $$$ its gunna cost, especially after an expensive move across the country. We gotta do it though. When we are able to get him to a private trainer will be completely related to when sam sets up shop in our new city and gets a job, and gets into an apartment, etc. So i am worried that it might take a little bit of time before we are able to afford the trainer.
 

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I know you are worried about using drugs, but if that gives Apollo a chance to know Sam better without freaking out, it might be worth it. I so admire you for sticking this out, and Sam, too!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you. Gabbys mom sent me the contact info for two different trainiers in St. Louis (where we are moving this May) I will definitly give them a call asap, as soon as we have the funds available. I will ask the vet about medication for apollo when I take him in to get his heartworm preventative before we move. Hopefully we can find a way to help this pup out. Boy did I get more then I was expeciting when I adopted him. I never owuld have dreamed that he'd have this many problems. Thats ok though, he's a great dog and once he is settled down I'm sure he'll be the greatest pup ever.
 

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Sounds like you've gotten some good advice. I just wanted to say hang in there. I know it can be discouraging. Brigetta will sometimes pee herself when she meets someone new or even when it's someone she knows. It's been almost a year since I've had her and she used to do it every single time. Now it usually only happens when the person doesn't do what I ask them to and they just go right up to her.
Good luck!
 

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One thing to remember about behavior is this...before a behavior is extinguished it always gets worse.

So the old saying it's going to get worse before it gets better, is true.
 

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It's great to see how open you are to suggestions. it must be frustrating.

Only thing i could suggest(and with no qualifications to back it up.. :) ) is perhaps REALLY tiring apollo out with alot of exercise, and then let sam and him together to do some bonding when he's all tuckered out.

My other comment would be, similar to my comment in the other thread, will apollo do this with ANY man or JUST Sam??? There's a HUUUUGE difference there in trying to diagnose what is going on here, and what could be the root cause, if Apollo remains calm around other men, but not Sam. My apologies if that was covered in a previous thread.

Also, i could suggest that Sam does not establish eye contact with apollo nor approach directly from the front.

could you perhaps video tape one of these encounter from a wide enough angle to where we can see the interaction from the very start of both Sam and Apollo ( ie, be back far enough we can see both of them in the video from the very beginning?) We could study the body language of both Sam and apollo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
We tried having one of sam's friends walk apollo. He was just as freaked as when sam walked him. Apollo doesn't freak out at the sight of other men (like he does with sam) but when sam or another man tries to walk him apollo goes absolutely ballistic. From the sounds he makes you would think that we were beating him with a sock filled with oranges. Its HORRIBLE the sounds he makes and all sam is doing is standing their, calmly holding apollo's leash in his hand!
 

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Apollopuppy said:
We tried having one of sam's friends walk apollo. He was just as freaked as when sam walked him. Apollo doesn't freak out at the sight of other men (like he does with sam) but when sam or another man tries to walk him apollo goes absolutely ballistic. From the sounds he makes you would think that we were beating him with a sock filled with oranges. Its HORRIBLE the sounds he makes and all sam is doing is standing their, calmly holding apollo's leash in his hand!
thanks for quick reply, i just added something else in previous post perhaps you could try...i'd be very interested in seeing a video to help with suggestions...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
great idea. I will have to be sneaky because apollo doesn't act like this when I am around. I will have Sam take apollo out and I'll hide where apollo can't see me and I'll try and get this on film. I hope it will help us figure out WHY apollo is acting this way.
 

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Okay, its really hard to say what may be going on here without seeing the interaction in person, BUT my first reading on this is that you (or rather Sam) are going too fast. If I am terrified of spiders, having them cook and clean for me isn't going to make me less phobic.

Desensitization of a deepseated fear is a very slow, gradual process. For example, for a dog that is terrified of nail trims:

I'd start gently stroking the dog once or twice. When its comfortable with a back stroke, I'd move to stroking the side. Then down the leg, just once or twice. Then gently holding the leg. Then gently raising the leg, holding high up on the leg. Then raising the leg in one hand and touching the paw with the other. Then stroking the paw gently. Then grasping the paw momentarily. Moving towards a longer and longer paw hold. Then a paw hold with the nail clippers on the floor 5 feet away. Then with clippers 4, 3, 2,1 foot away. Then with clippers beside dog. Then with clippers in hand but not touching the dog. Then paw hold with a fake 'air' clip with clippers. Then paw hold with clippers touching paw but still 'fake clipping'. Then paw hold and nail clippers cutting ONE nail.

Each step is to be repeated till the dog is entirely comfortable with it, and each step must be paired with a high value treat.

So for the walking issue, I would start out with you walking alone, and meeting up with Sam at some point, and walking together for a few minutes. Apollo is fine with that, then you can hand the leash over to Sam for no more than a few steps.

Make sense?

I would also look into the DAP diffusers/sprays.
 

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Okay, I've been thinking about you...

I think you said that Apollo is fine if you are with Sam and Apollo during your walks. How about if you walk Apollo...he'll be fine, right? Then quickly hand of the leash to Sam. Go a few steps, then you take the leash back....Continue for a little bit, but not to the point where Apollo is screaming. You want success.

I wonder if little steps would work in this case? (perhaps you've already tried this?)
 
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