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Before I got Scout I bought some training videos from Ed Frawley the owner of Leerburg Kennels. I bought the puppy training video, it is 3.5 hours so it was hard sitting through. I bought the obedience training video and finally a video on pack structure with the emphasis being we have to be the lead person of the pack in order to successfuly raise a dog

Hi potty training recommendations are mostly pretty standard but he believes in keeping the puppy in the crate most of the time until he is potty trained. When you play with him it should only be outdoors. That's a hard one for me.

From what I learned on this board is that developing pack structure has been proven as not necessary. He suggests to never let your dog get on your furniture or your bed. He will never let his dog mingle with other dogs when he goes on walks. His comment is that he wants his dog to be totally focused on him and not other people or dogs, that seems so restrictive His suggestions may be helpful but I want a dog who is a family member so I don't mind letting him sleep with me once he is potty trained. I also want to be well socialized and happy to be around other people and dogs.

Should I throw these tapes away.? He also uses the prong collar and e-collar once the dog reaches 8 months. I don't mind the prong collar so much I used it with Rocky and he never seemed to mind it but I hate the idea of zapping my dog with electricity, it seems so mean. The website for this kennel is leerburg.com. Thanks for reading this long post. I would love opinions from you all on whether to keep these videos and suggestions for alternate videos.
 

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As with all training methods, you should pick up and use what you are comfortable with. NOBODY has all the answers. Glean what you can from these sorts of tapes and use what you feel you can use.

There are people who think Ed is a genius and there are others who feel he's a fool. That holds true for all trainers/people who put out training books and videos.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Labby you are right. I watched Ed's puppy training video and it was very humane. He only using positive training with treats. I still don't like the idea of cooping my puppy up most of the time in his crate but there are a lot of other great tips he offers. Thanks for your comments
 

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Should I throw these tapes away.?
YES!

So if you believe him, how the hell are you supposed to socialise your dog? What a dork! As for not allowing them on the furniture, depending on how house proud you are, there's nothing wrong with having a dog asleep on the couch (or in my case, on top of you) while you're watching tv or sleeping on the bed it's how my dogs have lived all their lives & they know who's boss around here.

This was an immediate turn off for me:

Leerburg Video is a small, family-owned business. It has produced over 120 dog training videos since 1982. The owner, Ed Frawley, is one of the top breeders of working bloodline German Shepherd puppies in the world. He has bred over 350 litters of German Shepherds since 1978.
Do the math. That's 11 litters/year for the last 31 years or close to 1 litter/month. Is he running a puppy mill or what? :mad:

My advice to you is to stop reading & listening to BS like this guy & just enjoy your dog for what he is - a loyal & loving companion. Don't let people like this brainwash you & spoil the years of fun that await you if you just follow the normal obedience protocols.


 

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That's a lot of litters of puppies! Holy crap.

It's hard to decipher what is good advise and what is not. The best way to do it is to find a GOOD trainer (in person, not in a video) and go from there.

PS. The E-Collar has it's place. If used properly, for the right purposes, it is not inhumane.
 

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Take what you can from the tapes, and then toss them. Remember, he's training German Shepards which have a different temperment than Labradors.

I was just talking with a hunting trainer the other day, I was looking for someone to help me with some areas so that I can get my dogs to pass WCs and a Junior Hunt test. This dude basically told me that since my dogs were older (yes, 15 months was TOO old in his book), it was useless to train them now. The fact that they live altogether in the home as a pack has ruined them for hunting training. Which is BS in my book since I was able to train Maddy just fine with the right trainer. I just can't seem to find someone comparable to her here in Colorado.

For me crate training involves putting them away at night and when you aren't home. When you ARE home, the pup should be with you as much as possible. Labs are people dogs and need to learn how to behave in the home with their people. You limit their access to the house so they go from a pen in the kitchen to one room, to 2 rooms, until they are old enough, trustworthy enough to have access to more of the house.

I would find a local trainer to help you with general obedience.
 

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Oh yeah. Very old fashioned thinking on this trainer's part. There are still some out there that believe the old adage that the only good working Lab is black and to drown the others at birth.
 

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Hey Debbie, I just saw that you are in Irvine. That's where I lived before moving to Colorado. The trainer I told you that I loved used to hold sessions in Pine Tree Park off Red Hill/Bryan. If you PM me I'll send you here name and phone #. I bet she still trains there. You can also try running by on a Tuesday at 5PM and look for her. :)

You can also try: http://www.dogservicesunlimited.com/class_schedule.htm
I did all my basic training with Hudler and Maddy with these folks. They run the program through the City programs. It was pretty inexpensive and really good basic instruction!
 

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I googled Leerburg Kennels and scanned through some of it -- it's a huge website selling lots of stuff.

Dogs are adaptable to any number of consistent training procedures so I'm sure that the LK approach works well for people who want the end results he aims for and maybe especially for those who have German Shepherds.

There are some differences between temperaments of breeds, between GSs and LRs. GS have been bred to herd and guard. LR have been bred to retrieve and be sociable.

If you want a Lab that's sociable with other dogs, by all means give your pup ample opportunities to meet and play with other dogs through early puppyhood (especially, between 10 or 12 and 25 weeks). As a general rule, whatever you want your Lab to do -- meet people, like children, like other dogs -- do it within that early developmental span, not once or twice, but many times.

Since every home has its own set of traits and responses it wants from a dog sharing it, I suggest you get a good book on dog training (Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" is my favorite) and use it. I also suggest you look in your area for training classes, either at a pet store, your city's Parks & Recr. dept, dog clubs, etc. Reading Donaldson will prepare you to reject trainers with approaches that are deviant. Classes are very worthwhile because it gives the trainer a chance to correct mistakes you're unaware of making in training your dog.

Re: using prong or e-collars, JL people's opinions differ on these.

I don't like and don't use a prong. I bought one when my Puff was about 10 months old, used it a couple times, didn't like it.

I do use and like very much a Dogtra 200 NCP e-collar for certain situations. (And have 2, just to make sure one is available as back-up.) I bought one after 3 scary incidents happened in one week.

It has 3 different signals it can send to the dog. One is a (P)ager which is a non-shock vibration. The shock intensity can be infinitely adjusted anywhere from "0" to "100". I set mine at "20" which is the level that I can just begin to feel through my finger tips (which is also the level at which Puff barely notices it). There is a choice of duration of the stim or shock -- (N)ick is what it implies, very momentary; (C)ontinuous is for 5 seconds.

99% of the time, Puff only needs the (P) to respond. If she doesn't, I send a (N). I never use the (C).

The times she wears her Dogtra are when we're in the nature preserve (every morning) and she's offleash. If we see a strange dog or people or a skunk, I want her to come to me immediately so I can leash her until danger is passed. Also, when we go out unleashed to walk in our neighborhood for her to potty and me to bag it; Puff has a habit of barking at people and I'm trying to train that out of her. Kansas allows concealed carry (w/permit) of weapons and a local Lab was recently shot by a man because it barked at him. So I don't want Puff frightening people and/or jeopardizing her safety.


 

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My Uncle was a police dog handler and head trainer for a large police dog unit, and I grew up around police dogs. :)

Ed's training methods are directed specifically at raising and training working line German Shepherd Dogs, including those used for police work, scent detection work, protection work, and Schutzhund. If you have ever handled a dog with the typical temperament of these, and/or trained a working GSD, then his methods make a lot of sense. Mr. Frawley's methods don't make sense for the average pet Labrador. Labradors have a completely different temperament and the average pet does not need to have the same type of training that you would need from a police dog. You would be better off using methods by the likes of Nicholas Dodman, Patricia McConnell, and a few others I can't think of right now.
 

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Like others have said, there are as many methods of training as there are trainers...you have to find the method youre comfortable with and works for you. Many times, thats a combination of many approaches.

He also uses the prong collar and e-collar once the dog reaches 8 months. I don't mind the prong collar so much I used it with Rocky and he never seemed to mind it but I hate the idea of zapping my dog with electricity, it seems so mean....
I find that funny because I use an e collar, but personally won't put a prong collar on a dog. I however only use it for field training not basic things.

I was just talking with a hunting trainer the other day, I was looking for someone to help me with some areas so that I can get my dogs to pass WCs and a Junior Hunt test. This dude basically told me that since my dogs were older (yes, 15 months was TOO old in his book), it was useless to train them now. The fact that they live altogether in the home as a pack has ruined them for hunting training. Which is BS in my book since I was able to train Maddy just fine with the right trainer. I just can't seem to find someone comparable to her here in Colorado.
Was this a Hunt Test trainer or Field trials? Darwin didn't have any real desire to retrieve anything until he was 7mo...I thought he was broke ;) He didn't see a bird of any sort until he was at least 15mo and then easily went 4 for 4for both his SHR and JH. He LOVES to retrieve now!! I'm glad I didn't run into this dip$hit when I first was getting into this stuff, lol.
 

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Take what you can from the tapes, and then toss them. Remember, he's training German Shepards which have a different temperment than Labradors.

I was just talking with a hunting trainer the other day, I was looking for someone to help me with some areas so that I can get my dogs to pass WCs and a Junior Hunt test. This dude basically told me that since my dogs were older (yes, 15 months was TOO old in his book), it was useless to train them now. The fact that they live altogether in the home as a pack has ruined them for hunting training. Which is BS in my book since I was able to train Maddy just fine with the right trainer. I just can't seem to find someone comparable to her here in Colorado.
That's so ridiculous.... I hope you can find a training group nearby. You dont necessarily need a TRAINER, just a group w/ similar interests. I put a JH on a 7 yo and her 4 yo daughter back in 1999 and had the time of my life! Everyone, including pros (and even an AKC rep) at the tests, were VERY supportive and complimentary. That's just BS what you were told...

Back to Leerburg, he has some good info on certain topics that I've used in the past (like baby/puppy diarrhea!). Yes, he's had lots of litters, and we don't all agree w/ that but it sounds to me that he's a bit more commercialized with employees, than those of us on this board. I know in other breeds, that can be okay... I guess you just have to pick and choose what you want to take from his site. Anne
 

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I keep wanting to chime in on this, but I know nothing about it, so I think I'll just say that I would have a hard time with either a prong or e-collar on Harley. It may just be the Buddhist in me, but my basic feeling is the same as with my children. How can a person (or dog) ever truly trust you if you intentionally cause them pain? It's been my experience that any kind of corporal punishment subverts your relationship where positive re-enforcement would enhance it.

And on that, I'll read my signature and bow out...

Namaste..

Kevin
 

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Not to side track this thread, the guy I talked to trained for both HT and FT, though he didn't run tests any more himself. It seemed his focus was mostly real hunting, but he was breeding labs too.

We do have a small group that gets together, but it's not as focused as what I am looking for. Maddy never went through a formal FF training, but we learned the fundamentals, and I was hoping to find someone to go through that with again. Not drop the dog off for 3 months and have them do it.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks everyone for so many replies and different responses. I think I will use the training advice that uses positive reinforcement and just ignore the stuff that I think doesn't work for me or my puppy. Ed's puppy training video is actually very positive. He uses treat training and clicker training He does not use any harsh methods on puppies, although I do disagree about keeping the puppy in the crate most of the day and only playing outside with your puppies. I do know he trains GS for Shutzhund, police dog traing and narcotics sniffing so it makes sense that you would use a method for labs that meets its temperamental needs.
 
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