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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So i have been doing alot of thinking about vaccinations...actually about not giving them.

Now, for Apollo and my cats, I was wondering...do you reccommend not giving vaccinations at all? or to only give them every three years? All of them have already been vaccinated for various things atleast once. If I don't vaccinate yearly, do I put my dog/cats at risk for contracting one of the diseases I am vaccinating against? Such as canine or feline distemper?

For my ferrets, canine distemper is 100% fatal to them. I really would hate myself if my little ferrets got it and passed away, so I will continue to vaccinate them for distemper, but I was wondering...do you think if I did it every three years that would be better? I know you don't know anything about ferrets, but I see you are quite informed about vaccines.

Also do you have some good articles, websites, resources, etc that I could read to give me a better idea about not vaccinating? Everyone (including the ferrets) will have to get their rabies. I am pretty sure its law where I live. For example, if my ferrets bite someone, they would have the right to seize and destroy my animal if they do not have 1. a current rabies vaccine record and 2. a specific type of rabies vaccine.

Any advice and info would be helpful. I want to make sure I'm properly informed so that i can make the best decision for my little ones. No one has vaccinations coming up until September, so I have plenty of time to think about not vaccinating and getting the facts before then.

Thanks for any help in advance!
 

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If they are protected now, they will be protected for life. The vaccine manufacturers have never been able to prove the revaccination is necessary. Dr. Ron Schultz who is a leading immunologist has this to say about revaccination:

A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual revaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years), and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic (secondary) response as a result of interference by existing antibody (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination or is required by law (i.e., certain states require annual revaccination for rabies).

Check this link for the efficacy of vaccines: http://www.fallriverlabs.com/Considerations%20in%20Designing%20Effective%20and%20Safe%20Vaccination%20Programs%20for%20Dogs.htm
If you revaccinate, you will get all of the risk and none of the benefit, period.

As for preventing disease, most disease occurs within 3 months of a vaccination and there is a ton of research that shows vaccinated people and animals are equally likely to get the very disease they are vaccinated for.

Rabies is required by law, but they do NOT have the right to seize your animals and chop their heads off should they bite somebody.

I have about twenty or thirty links on my site and you can direct to roughly a hundred sites and articles from there:

http://www.fallriverlabs.com/Health%20Links.html Scroll down to the bottom to Vaccinations.

Here is something else to consider:

Vaccinations – how they work, when they work…

Many people believe that a vaccination gives instant protection against certain
diseases, as included in the vaccine. This is absolutely not the case - and it can be
outright dangerous to administer vaccines under that assumption, as even many
veterinarians unfortunately do on a routine basis….

How vaccines are manufactured

There are, in principle, two types of vaccines:

1. killed vaccines
2. modified live vaccines.

Vaccines are manufactured by growing the virus that causes the disease on some
tissue that will allow it to nourish and grow. Once the culture has reached a
sufficient size for production, the manufacturing can start.

For a killed vaccine, the virus is simply killed, often by adding poisonous chemicals
to the culture. The culture is then “formulated” – which simply means diluted with
solvents and having reagents added to it so it can stay preserved and can be divided
into individual probes that can be sold, ready for injection through a needle.

For a modified live vaccine, the culture is not killed, but crippled instead. This is
accomplished by changing its living conditions, so it will temporarily lose its ability to
multiply at its normal rate. This can be done either through a change to a substance
for it to live from that is not optimal for it (tissue from a different species it normally
would not attack), or it can be accomplished by adding chemicals that will cripple it,
but not totally kill it. Sometimes both methods are used, as some preservation
chemicals always are added later on to preserve the vaccine in the containers it gets
sold in.

What a vaccine is supposed to do

A vaccine is supposed to challenge the body’s immune system – make it believe that
it got infected with the real disease, but because the disease is either dead or
crippled, the body’s immune system should have an easy job generating a response
that ends up being “overkill” because the vaccine really wasn’t that dangerous at all.
The entire range of processes and action that constitute such as response is very
complex, but there are two important components that should be understood:

- The body produces a serious of antibodies to encapsulate the virus and its
poisonous discharges.
- The body establishes a filing system that records the main characteristics of
the disease and will enable it to get an earlier warning next time an invasion
of this disease should occur.

This is just about the same it would do when fighting aback an attack of the real
disease.

In case of a vaccine, however, the antibodies will be produced in great excess –
because the body overestimated the need for them. Those antibodies can be
measured (often called “titers”), and when they are present, you have confirmation
that the dog’s immune system is prepared for an attack of this disease. Because of
this preparedness and the early warning the immune system will get because the
disease next time will be recognized almost momentarily, chances of a successful
battle against the disease are so vastly increased that a new infection generally will
be defeated before it ever gets to harm the body.

The same thing happens if the body successfully fought the real disease. The body
won’t be taken “off-guard” one more time by that disease, so, next time an infection
arrives, it will be defeated fast and completely. The body is thus immune to the
disease. This is called auto-immunization.

So, what happens in either case is that preparedness gets established through a
challenge to the immune system – by the immune system successfully defeating the
challenge.

Some important consequences...

As you can understand from the way vaccines work, they do not give instant
protection. The protection they cause the body to develop will take time to establish
– typically about the same time as a successful fight against the real disease. In
most cases, for our dogs, this means 2-3 weeks. So, in that meantime, the dog has
no protection! It is actually fighting a fake disease, as if it was sick – and, seriously,
sometimes the dog truly does get sick from a vaccination! Generally not quite as
bad as from the real disease, but bad enough to notice on its behavior.

Vaccines do differ from the real disease. For some, the different is so significant
that the body does not establish an effective protection against the disease – the
vaccine did not work… This is often the case for killed vaccines. The body quickly
figures out that somebody “cried wolf” for no good reason, and all the mobilized
defense gets dismissed, and no preparedness established. The vaccination is
considered a false alarm – which it actually also truly was! When the disease
arrives, the body will taken off guard… We got a false protection.

Vaccines also differ from the real disease by the fact of the virus being contained in
a liquid that gets injected into the body in a location that never would be a first
entrance for a naturally contracted infection. This surprise for the immune system
will normally result in exactly that over-reaction that is desired, but it can also
sometimes go too far: this happens when the body directs the preparedness towards
another attack from the same location in the body – and will thus not be timely
alerted when the real disease arrives through the natural entrances….

Finally, there is another important thing too take into account when administering a
vaccine. The virus comes in a liquid that contains some poisonous preservation
chemicals. On top of that, this “soup” also contains remains of the foreign tissue the
virus was cultivated on – it is impossible to physically take the virus off that tissue,
so the manufacturer simply takes the tissue with the virus – and dilutes it in the
poisonous soup that now is called “vaccine”. There are two important effects of this:

- The poisons will cause another challenge to the immune system. On top of
fighting the disease, it must also clean up after a serious “chemical spill”.
- Also the foreign tissue will challenge the immune system! It might actually
cause all kinds of allergic reactions, as foreign protein entered undigested,
directly into the blood should do!

Those two additional challenges to the immune system will cause the body to
experience the stress of three challenges at one time! This will, generally, take just
about all its capacity. Some research shows that we talk about 60-75% of that
capacity when we use a killed vaccine, and some 75-90% when we used a modified
live vaccine.

What if the dog is sick at the time of vaccination?

As you can understand from the way a vaccine uses the immune system’s capacity,
there will be a problem if the dog gets vaccinated at a time when it is already using
the immune system to fight another real disease. It could be something fairly
harmless that easily can be defeated, but when the vaccine gets added to the
picture, that picture changes dramatically….

We now have a competitive situation. The immune system has its limited capacity.
Here is one on-going battle that typically takes about half its capacity – and now
another challenge is introduced that demands way more attention than what it has
left of its capabilities! The result is that it must prioritize and concentrate on fighting
the most dangerous threat first. This will often be the current disease. But the
effect of that is that no immunity will be established against the vaccine – because,
at the time the immune system comes around to fighting it, it is very obvious that
this threat is fake – so it won’t be taken seriously. That means: the vaccine did not
work…

A very dangerous alternative to this is that some modified live vaccines “wake up”
when they got time to nourish themselves a regain their strength – and the dog will
not experience a full-fledged attack by the disease you were trying to protect it
from!

Another possibility is that the immune system will concentrate on the vaccine – and
leave the other disease to rampage the body and possibly do much more harm than
otherwise. The dog might actually get so sick from something fairly simple that it
can die from it.

Finally, those remains of the foreign tissue will, in both cases, probably be left to
float around in the blood – and do a lot of damage. Once the immune system finally
gets around to dealing with this problem, the damage can be significant. This will
result in the body now perceiving a very serious threat from these protein molecules
from the foreign tissue – so it will over-react in its defense against them. And that
is exactly what happens when an allergy reaction is created. The net result is that
the dog developed some serious allergies to certain proteins that are similar to those
that were in the virus tissue – and those will very often be from animals that are
used for dog food. Voila – we now have a serious food allergy!

What about multiple vaccinations?

Let’s assume we let the vet administer a “combi-shot”, i.e. a mix of several vaccines
in the same injection.

When we consider the capacity of the immune system, we can easily see that this is
not a smart move…. Each vaccine will need at least 60% of the body’s capacity for
immune defense in order to create an effective protection against this disease. We
will get the same situation as we had when we discussed vaccinating a sick dog.
Maximum one of the vaccines will work – and maybe none – and we won’t know
until it is too late… Mixing more than two vaccines just makes it even worse.
This has been confirmed by practical research. The famous Swiss Distemper
epidemic in 1984 is a prime example that clearly showed that dogs that had been
vaccinated with combined Distemper-Parvo vaccines contracted Distemper as easily
as dogs that had not been vaccinated at all!

In human medicine, this is well known. In Sweden and Japan, for instance,
vaccinating a person with more than one vaccine at a time is prohibited by law.
The US Army is probably the worst abuser of this rule, demanding multiple
vaccinations of its personnel – and trying to explain away the many casualties its
gets from this ridiculous procedure that might be cost effective in terms of a military
perspective – but certainly completely unacceptable from a humane standpoint.
So, why should we do this to our dogs….?

Mogens Eliasen
-------------------------------------------
Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing
lots of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems,
f eeding, and health care
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks so much, dear! ;D I knew I could count on you for a "butt load" of info! lol ;)
 

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No problem...I am verbose when it comes to some subjects :angel:

By the way, do your ferrets stay inside? If so, where do you think they will get the distemper from? The only place they could get this airborn disease is through the breath of an infected animal.
The only other way they could get it is when it is shed through your dogs when you vaccinate them for distemper...just food for thought ::)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I was told that distemper was able to travel on clothing and whatnot, and that the they could get infected even if the ferrets do not go outside.


How can the Virus spread?

Canine Distemper is spread through bodily secretions (nasal fluid for example) The most common form of transmission is airborne. Dogs become infected by
breathing in particles secreted by infected hosts. For several weeks after recovery, a dog will still carry the virus which can lead to further contamination
if not properly quarantined.

http://www.dogflu.ca/canine-distemper


Even if its not true, they still go to the vet (where there are dogs) and they travel in the care sometimes to go visit their "auntie" and "uncle" at a local ferret shelter (where dogs are also present) do you think I should vaccinate them for distemper or not? Ferrets are fragile animals to begin with, I do not want to put them at risk by over vaccinating, but at the same time, distemper is 100% fatal in them and I worry they might contract it. What are your thoughts on this?
 

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Geez, I don't know too much about it, only the mode of transmission.
You would have to know the prevalence for ferrets and make a decision from there.
 

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A good book on the subject of vaccination is;

Vaccine Guide for Dogs & Cats by Catherine J.M. Diodati, MA

My Public Library has a copy that can be acquired through InterLibrary Loan or it can be bought on Amazon. Pretty much similar information as 'FallRiver" has given but in 'hard copy' with many, many references for those who are hard to convince.
 

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So then instead of revacinating I could have Titers done to check for immunity? I had Ambers puppy shots and her Rabies shot and then when it came time to renew her registration I had just the Rabies shot done. About 8-10 hours after the rabies shot she started itching and had some severe ear pain. I took her back to the original vet and they said I would have to make an appointment I then just took her straight to an emergency vet as she wasn't acting quite right. At the vet her ears were clean and smelled clean but were red and hot. the vet gave me some drops for her ears and told me that it was probably a mild delayed reaction to the vaccine.
I am now worried about what to do when her next rabbies vaccine is due...I amd going to see if I can get a rabbies Titer and see if I can get a waivier for the vaccine due to medical risk? I think this is possible? not sure.
Any advice?

Kelly and Amber
 

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Personally, I wouldn't even bother running a titre, but that can be an important first step in feeling more comfortable with not doing revax.
Some states do allow medical exemptions...if you want them, you might want to find a holistic vet.
If you must give it again, give her 30cc of Lyssin as quickly after the vaccine as you can.
 

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FallRiver said:
Personally, I wouldn't even bother running a titre, but that can be an important first step in feeling more comfortable with not doing revax.
Some states do allow medical exemptions...if you want them, you might want to find a holistic vet.
If you must give it again, give her 30cc of Lyssin as quickly after the vaccine as you can.
The only reason I will be doing a titer is for Caleb's Therapy Dog recertification. If it were not for that I would not bother at all. His holistic vet gave him the rabies so she could do the Lyssin and muscle test him afterwards--he still had terrible runs for about three days afterwards. Not stuff to mess with!
 

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For those still wanting, for whatever reason, to vaccinate their animals: Most vets do NOT recommend yearly revaccination anymore. Even traditional vets are going to a three year schedule for cats and dogs on all standard vaccinations.

I know my vet (who is not a holistic vet, just has a very laid back attitude towards the decisions made by her clients) is willing to do whatever shot schedule I want without problem. She knows I am generally informed and instead of telling me what shots are due, simply asks me at each visit if the animal needs any shots at that time. I'm still considering the possibilities for Piper, though if we do doggie daycare they require proof of vax. My cats do get vax on a three year schedule b/c I do a lot of kitty rescue work and have had fosters with fairly major diseases and am not personally comfortable with not vaxing them.

Does anyone have information on what, if anything, it is possible for Piper to contract from the cats?
 

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JackieG said:
For those still wanting, for whatever reason, to vaccinate their animals: Most vets do NOT recommend yearly revaccination anymore. Even traditional vets are going to a three year schedule for cats and dogs on all standard vaccinations.

Unfortunately most around here are still doing the annuals.
 

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So glad I came upon this thread, Sammi is due for her 1 yr. re-vax, and I have been feeling amblivent about getting them. Her Rabies is actually not due until sept.07. But all others will be due next month if I chose to get them. What do you do about folks who require them? Such as for agility training, or classes of any kind!
 

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First of all let me say that I am in FallRiver's "camp" on the vaccination issue and have had no "boosters" given to Auggie (except 3 yr. rabies) since Jan1999, when my Pharaoh Hound Talley was diagnosed with Cutaneous T-cell Carcinoma; also no Heart Guard since then. Every Spring we have gone in for heart worm tests and so far every test has been negative. Auggie was due for her rabies 3/06. I thought long and hard about it, did a lot of research, talked it over with my vet, weighed the legal risks, and came to the conclusion that 4 rabies vaccinations in her 10 years of life (at that time) was more than sufficient. She was not vaccinated for rabies. As of 10/4/06 she is living with/thriving with Hepatocellular Carcinoma - a whole 'nother thread and story.....

To address "dipete's" concerns about Sammie: I am not a veterinarian or an expert so I can only say what I would consider doing for my own dog.

I see by the sig pic that Sammie is now just a year old. Taking for granted that Sammi has had her normal course of puppy shots, I would talk to my vet to see what the serious locally prevalent diseases were in my specific area.
Then, should I decide to vaccinate, I would request that each disease 'valent'/shot be given separately, (that will really drive your poor vet nuts) at least 4 weeks apart, and the rabies at least 6 weeks after the last booster.
This is what I would do were Sammi my very own dog.

This take on vaccination will cause problems in regard to "official" stuff, like classes, day care, boarding, etc. In '91 I considered getting Auggie certified for therapy work but did not want her vaccinated to the extent they required.
And I have found a local home based day care - short term boarding - person that completely understands and is more than willing to have Auggie in her home with her two King Charles Caviler Spaniels who are now 'middle aged' and are now no longer getting 'routine boosters' themselves.

I too am following this thread and am very interested in FallRiver's response to dipete's concerns.
 

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Sammi is due for her 1 yr. re-vax, and I have been feeling amblivent about getting them. Her Rabies is actually not due until sept.07. But all others will be due next month if I chose to get them. What do you do about folks who require them? Such as for agility training, or classes of any kind!
Well, your puppy made it through the first year of life with an immature immune system and didn't catch any diseases. Now your puppy has a mature immune system. Do you feel safe taking her anywhere now? If so, there's no reason not to feel safe tomorrow as memory cells remain for the life of the animal. If you have taken her around the city and to dog classes, she has been exposed to most of those diseases already and didn't catch them, so her immune system is functioning just fine.
Now if you were to vaccinate her next month, you would get no benefit (you are either immune or not, you can not be 'more' immune) and all of the risk and the risk is you will actually destroy her immune system and begin leaving her susceptible to disease.

When we challenge the body by access to a virus or by vaccination, these two things happen:

- The body produces a serious of antibodies to encapsulate the virus and its poisonous discharges.
- The body establishes a filing system that records the main characteristics of the disease and will enable it to get an earlier warning next time an invasion of this disease should occur.

The protection that vaccines create in the body will take time to establish – typically about the same time as a successful fight against the real disease. In most cases, this means 2-3 weeks. So, in that meantime, the dog has
no protection. It is actually fighting a fake disease, as if it was sick and sometimes the dog truly does get sick from a vaccination. Generally not quite as bad as from the real disease, but bad enough to notice. This is why many puppies die from the parvo vaccine.

There is also another important thing too take into account when administering a vaccine. The virus comes in a liquid that contains some poisonous preservation chemicals. On top of that, this “soup” also contains remains of the foreign tissue the virus was cultivated on – it is impossible to physically take the virus off that tissue, so the manufacturer simply takes the tissue with the virus – and dilutes it in the poisonous soup that now is called “vaccine”. There are two important effects of this:

- The poisons will cause another challenge to the immune system. On top of fighting the disease, it must also clean up after a serious “chemical spill”.
- Also the foreign tissue will challenge the immune system! It might actually cause all kinds of allergic reactions, as foreign protein entered undigested, directly into the blood should do!

Those two additional challenges to the immune system will cause the body to experience the stress of three major challenges at one time. This will take just about all its capacity and leave it susceptible to every disease that comes it's way. This is why most dogs are taken to the vets within three months of a vaccination.

If I were to find a training facility that required vaccinations, I would look elsewhere. It is too important to sacrifice the health of your pet for an agility class. Many facilities will accept titres or make allowances for freaks like us. Besides, most competition people feed raw and do low vax, so your instructors may just have an unvaccinated dog too.
 

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FallRiver said:
If I were to find a training facility that required vaccinations, I would look elsewhere. It is too important to sacrifice the health of your pet for an agility class. Many facilities will accept titres or make allowances for freaks like us. Besides, most competition people feed raw and do low vax, so your instructors may just have an unvaccinated dog too.
I know on my forms I do ask if they have had their shots. Most people worry if they think a dog in the class has not had thier shots. I don't make a big fuss over it. I do have people who don't do shots at all. Where I take Caleb she requires shots or titers and I just don't put anything down.
 

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Thanks so much for the information. Do beleave I will be going with my gut on this one and not have Sammi re-vaxed. Was thinking back with my pup that I lost at age 11, 1 1/2 yrs. ago- I had not had her vaccinted after she was 5yrs. old, and my cat since age 2, she lived until she was 18. Aspen are pup went everywhere with us, and there for was exposed to everything possible. Never was sick until 7 days before she died and I'm sure she got into something while under the care of "grandma"- So long story short, thanks for making me feel better about doing what I felt I should all along! Oh yeah do you find that people really dont understand this, sort of like not vaccinating kids?
 

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Oh yeah do you find that people really dont understand this, sort of like not vaccinating kids?
I can't believe the number of vaccinations children have to endure nowadays....isn't is over twenty now? And vaccinating for things like the measles and the mumps...it makes my head spin. How on earth does the risk of the measles outweigh the risk of autism ??? ::) ???
Young girls in Texas are already dying from the Papillomavirus vaccines that the school board requires them to take.
No wonder all these poor kids spend half their time walking around looking for peanut free snacks and the other half struggling with homework or social skills because they have ADHD or some similar problem. It's really frightening that the risks are not divulged to the parents and even more frightening that these vaccines are mandatory. :mad:
How's that for a rant ;)
 
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