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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there a post somewhere in the archives that talks about Dudleys? How can I find it. Just a generic need for information. Ran into someone that started asking questions.

Can they be registered?
Is it a fault that disqualifies from conformation?
Is the probability of Dudley pups increased if a Dudley ***** is bred?
Is the fault anything more than a pigmentation fault? Is the Dudley prone to any additional health risk?
 

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I'm sure there's a link somewhere, but I can answer a couple of your questions.


Can they be registered? Yes

Is it a fault that disqualifies from conformation? Yes

Is the probability of Dudley pups increased if a Dudley ***** is bred? I believe so, but why breed a dog with a disqualify fault, unless it's a proven/titled field dog.

Is the fault anything more than a pigmentation fault? Is the Dudley prone to any additional health risk? As far as I know, dudleys don't have any more health issues than Labs with normal pigment.
 

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I'm sure there's a link somewhere, but I can answer a couple of your questions.


Can they be registered? Yes

Is it a fault that disqualifies from conformation? Yes

Is the probability of Dudley pups increased if a Dudley ***** is bred? I believe so, but why breed a dog with a disqualify fault, unless it's a proven/titled field dog.

Is the fault anything more than a pigmentation fault? Is the Dudley prone to any additional health risk? As far as I know, dudleys don't have any more health issues than Labs with normal pigment.
Yup. That.

There is some disagreement as to what a dudley really is. Are you talking about a yellow dog with chocolate pigment or a yellow dog lacking all pigment (pink)?

According to the CKC under Coat and Colour a brown pigmented dog is different than a dudley:

b) Yellows
Yellow may vary in colour from fox-red to light cream with variations in the shading of the coat on ears, the underparts of the dog, or beneath the tail. A small white spot on chest is permissible. Eye colouring and expression should be the same as that of the blacks, with black or dark brown eye rims. The nose should also be black or dark brown, although ?fading? to pink in the winter weather is not serious.


Also:

Faults
Dudley nose (pink without pigmentation).


While Dozer is sometimes referred to as a dudley by people I meet he actually is not, according to the CKC breed standard, because he has a dark nose and dark brown rims around his eyes.

 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks guys. You are confirming what I thought.

Labradorable, I think Dozer's brown pigments are adorable. I don't think I have ever met a yellow with brown pigments like that in real life. I always thought the dudley meant without pigment.

This whole question came up when someone on another board showed a picture of a litter they were expecting a pup from. The mother ***** was/is a dudley and several of the pups appear to be, I knid of raised the question of why the ***** was bred, and what someone would spend for a dudley pup? Would the breeder, who probably should not have bred the ***** be asking full price as the others?
 

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Thanks. We get a lot of compliments on his odd colouring. I'd never seen a dog like him before either. I actually didn't know anything about yellow lab colouring until after we picked him out and the breeder told us "it looks like he's got a chocolate nose". Correction -- He chose me, not vice versa. I wanted a dog with a black nose. LOL

I don't think someone should breed a dudley because its not breed standard, however, if someone were to breed and accidently get a dudley I don't think they should cost any less than the other pups -- poor pup might get a complex. LOL
 

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This is one of those "strange" things with breed standards. Dozer probably comes from a lineage that bred yellows to chocolates, hence the green eyes and liver nose. Most reputable breeders avoid breeding these two colors because of this "fault" even though they are fully purebred dogs, and other than the pigment they could be "perfect"

Same thing happens with Merle Great Danes. They are not allowed in the ring, but it is impossible to have a Harlequin without having Merle Pups, and these Merles could be even more gorgeous than any black or harlequin, and totally purebred.

It´s just "somebody" decides certain colors or markings are not acceptable just because...
 

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Unlike Dozer's brown color, Chamois is a dudley (pink nose, lips and eye rims):



Her litter included all the possible colors of labs. Two blacks, one chocolate, one pale yellow with black nose and eye rims, and one dark-ish yellow dudley (or that's at least the 5 who were taken in by rescue, don't know if there were more who were sold by the BYB before they and the mom were turned into the shelter - grr!).
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
And Chamois is a beautiful Lab too! Haven't met a Lab I didn't like yet. Of course, I now know that there are Brindles!!! Haven't seen one yet, but am sure I will like that one too, even if it does strike me strangely.
 

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Brindles are apparently very rare. Never seen one either.

Dozer's mom is chocolate, his Dad is yellow (black pigment), so yes, that's where he gets the colouring.

Chamois is adorable.
 

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My understanding -- perhaps incomplete -- is that Dudleys happen in only
Yellow Labs and, at that, only a small proportion of Yellow Labs.

Take a look at the top genetic diagram in Pam Davol's article on Lab coat color.

http://www.labbies.com/genetics.htm

Look at the bottom right hand box among the Yellow Labs (eebb). It's among
Labs with that genetic makeup that Dudleys will occur.

Whether having two little b's (which, without the two little e's also being present
would insure the Lab was chocolate)
is sufficient in and of itself, I don't know.
Possibly there is some other genetic factor that also needs to occur. BUT, it
is only among that group that Dudleys occur.

If a Yellow has BB characteristics, the nose, eye rims, and gums will be black
(the most desirable characteristic). That's found in the yellow box diagonally
opposite (eeBB) the Dudley box.

If a Yellow has bB or Bb characteristics, the nose, eye rims, and gums will be
brown or liver colored.

It is when a Yellow has bb genetic characteristics that the nose, eye rims, and
gums will be pink.

 

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Is the probability of Dudley pups increased if a Dudley ***** is bred? I believe so, but why breed a dog with a disqualify fault, unless it's a proven/titled field dog.
Not if you know the dog's DNA well enough to know how you can breed without producing them. A dudley is a yellow dog with chocolate skin, so if you breed to a black who carries yellow NOT chocolate, then you will get all yellow and black puppies, no dudleys. Likewise with breeding to a yellow who does not carry chocolate, no dudleys. There are several ways of doing this to eliminate the Yellow carrying chocolate gene.

Dozer does not have black pigment, he has chocolate pigment, so he is a dudley. He lacks pigmentation of the black variety=dudley. Same way a chocolate dog can have light or dark pigmentation ie. pink or chocolate. I've never seen a yellow dog with chocolate coloring in the ring, ever. Most likely because its not accepted as being pigmented.

Most other standards despite the CKC read this way:

Nose-- The nose should be wide and the nostrils well-developed. The nose should be black on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment is a disqualification...Eye rims are black in black and yellow Labradors; and brown in chocolates. Eye rims without pigmentation is a disqualification.

It is simply a superficial flaw, though yes, most often reputable breeders do not breed yellow and chocolate dogs together, though I considered it for my Ruby, who I know does not carry chocolate, to a chocolate dog who carries yellow. Its a whole nother game if you know what dice you are playing with. For every other breeder who produces dudleys, they simply don't care or show, so it makes no difference to them, they are still getting money from puppy sales from people who don't know, or don't care.
 

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Dozer is a Dudley.

A Dudley is simply a chocolate Labrador wearing yellow pajamas. They have chocolate skin, chocolate noses, chocolate eyes (most have green/blue as puppies and lighter amber eyes as adults like chocolates), and chocolate pads. The lighter the coat color the lighter the pigment so a really light creamy yellow Dudley has pink/fleshy colored noses, lips, eye rims and paw pads whereas a darker yellow/red has darker brown skin. It used to be believed that a yellow could "lack pigment" but this is not true. A yellow either has black pigment or no black pigment (NBP) and is thus a Dudley. There are yellows that have poor pigment on their eye rims (spot of white) and/or winter noses that fade to very light pink but this is not a lack of pigment and not a Dudley.

The term "Dudley" was first used to describe Bulldogs back in the 40's I believe as it was the name of a Bulldog that was red and white but instead of having the typical black nose and mask it had a red, self colored nose and lips. The Bulldog standard was then revised to describe a Dudley and deem them as a disqualification.

The genetics of coat color was not fully understood and back then they thought the dog was a "genetic mishap" and labeled it as having an increased chance of health problems. We now know this is not true. It is simply a combination of genes that cause a dog to have liver pigment and it's an accepted color in many other breeds like the Pointer (orange and white has a black nose and lemon and white has a liver/chocolate nose), Beagle, and various other Sporting breeds.

A Dudley can result from ANY combination of Labradors - black bred to black, chocolate to chocolate, black to yellow, yellow to yellow. If both parents either are or carry BOTH yellow and chocolate then a Dudley can arise.

I have a Dudley. He has very dark brown pigment and is a dark yellow but his genetics are the same as a light colored Dudley.

My black boy has produced Dudley puppies. How? He is black and carries both yellow and chocolate. He was bred to a black ***** who previously was bred to a chocolate who carried yellow yet in her litter of 9 she had only blacks and chocolates so it was "assumed" she did NOT carry yellow. Well bred to my guy she had a "rainbow litter" and out of the 4 yellows there was 1 Dudley. So responsible breeders do have surprises sometimes and it does not mean that those puppies are any less Labrador than the littermates. Dudleys are typically not bred since they can't be shown so everyone I know who has produced one simply places them as pets - there are others in the litter to choose from to show and breed, etc. So in general yes anyone who is breeding a Dudley doesn't really have a clue.

My Dudley boy who comes from a long line of champion show dogs.



 

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Dozer's mom is chocolate, his Dad is yellow (black pigment), so yes, that's where he gets the colouring.
Again Dozer is absolutely a Dudley. His darker brown pigment is just an individual thing (again some have very pink coloring and others are darker) and has nothing to do with the simplicity of what color his parents are on the outside. Both of his parents carry the yellow gene and his black Dad also carries chocolate. Dozer inherited a yellow gene from both AND a chocolate gene from both making him a Dudley (eebb). If he had only inherited a chocolate gene from one and a black from the other he would be yellow with correct black pigment. If he had only inherited one yellow from one parent and not from the other he would be chocolate.
 

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There's where I don't understand ... so either the CKC is wrong with their description of dudleys or the people saying the opposite are wrong. Like I said at the beginning, this topic has a whole whack of disagreements.

Is Dozer a dudley? Yes. No. I personally don't care. He's a great dog.

I am finding myself more educated about how genetics work. Very interesting. Dudley's may not be "show quality" but they're still gorgeous.
 

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so either the CKC is wrong with their description of dudleys or the people saying the opposite are wrong.
The standards are not "wrong" but the wording is not technically correct. It takes an army to change a standard and when they've been changed it causes a lot of problems. The description is still in effect because it was implemented before people completely understood coat color genetics and the color was only disqualified because folks back then didn't like the look. I agree with you that it's confusing and according to the CKC AND AKC standard a Dudley or NBP CAN be shown since they can have brown pigment and not a "lack of pigment".

I for one feel it's only a matter of time before someone attempts this and starts the ball rolling for Dudleys to become either accepted in the show ring or the wording changed.

It's important for everyone to know they are simply a natural color combination when you have red (yellow in our case) and liver (chocolate) in the same breed and they are beautiful.
 

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He's cute and loved and it doesn't matter! His nose will probably fade after a few winters and be pink too.
Exactly, he's loved and sweet and wonderful (except when he gets that evil puppy thing going. :p) Yes, it very well could turn pink, but if he had black pigment he could very well get snow nose as well (though I'm not sure how common snow nose really is).
 
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