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In the thread http://justlabradors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14010 Labby/Laura maintains -- as she consistently has for many years that Labs are not a large breed dog.

I don't feed Large Breed food for starters. Labs are not a large breed.
There are 2 issues involved here and I'm only interested in one -- what's the proper definition of a Lab's size, at what adult weight is a dog considered Large Breed and at what weight Medium Breed?

In the past, Laura has argued that because the LRCA standard says "medium" that they are not a LB dog.

I've argued it's whatever actual weight one specifies and not the word you use.

Laura has an enormous amount of experience with Labradors and maintains a website with much valuable information and deserves much appreciation for her long support of the JL community. I deeply respect her and rarely differ with her -- except on this issue, LB vs. MB -- (and on her claimed ability to send radio wave commands from a car's smart key over telephones :) )

The canine nutritional scientists in the USA generally define "LB" as dogs weighing over 25 Kg (55 lbs.) as adults but they are free to define their categories as they wish. One group of Canadian scientists chooses to define LB as those dogs with a typical adult weight over 15 kg (33 lbs.) and I've put a quote from them at the end.

What's your take -- are Labs MB or LB?

From the LRCA standard
General Appearance
The Labrador Retriever is a strongly built, medium-sized, short-coupled, dog possessing a sound, athletic, well-balanced conformation that enables it to function as a retrieving gun dog; the substance and soundness to hunt waterfowl or upland game for long hours under difficult conditions; the character and quality to win in the show ring; and the temperament to be a family companion.....

Size, Proportion and Substance
Size - The height at the withers for a dog is 22-1/2 to 24-1/2 inches; for a ***** is 21-1/2 to 23-1/2 inches. Any variance greater than 1/2 inch above or below these heights is a disqualification. Approximate weight of dogs and bitches in working condition: dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds. The minimum height ranges set forth in the paragraph above shall not apply to dogs or bitches under twelve months of age.

From www.newmanveterinary.com
There is considerable controversy regarding the role of nutrition during the developmental and growth periods of puppyhood and its possible effects on the musculoskeletal system in later life. espcially in our larger (greater than 60 lbs,) breeds.

From www.peteducation.com
Hip dysplasia can be found in dogs, cats, and humans, but for this article we are concentrating only on dogs. In dogs, it is primarily a disease of large and giant breeds. German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers, Rottweilers, Great Danes, Golden Retrievers, and Saint Bernards appear to have a higher incidence.

from www.canismajor.com/dog/pennhip1.html
The PennHip method of diagnosing hip dysplasia
When canine hip dysplasia (CHD) was first described in the 1930s, it was thought to be a rare condition. Today we know it as the most common inherited joint problem of large breed dogs. Despite years of research and the combined effort of the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and responsible dog breeders, it has been impossible to eliminate hip dysplasia from breeds of dogs like the Akita, German Shepherd Dog, Labrador and Golden retrievers, and the Rottweiler.

And here's a group that defines LB at a lower weight:

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC340307/
One of the major issues in cruciate disease in the last 2 decades has been a shift to large breed dogs. In our first survey, 65% of patients were small breed dogs, while 35% were large breed dogs. In the first 8 y of the previous survey (1983–1990), large breeds made up only 22% of cases, but from 1991 to 1994, the numbers increased to 48%. From 1997 to 2002, the trend continued, with 61% of patients being classified as large breed and 39% as small breed. In both surveys, the definition of large versus small breed was based on a cut-off point of approximately 15 kg. Some obese animals > 15 kg were classified as small breed. In the latest survey, Labradors and Labrador crossbreds comprised 21.6% of all CCL patients; poodles and poodle crossbreds, 9%; bichon frises, 8.5%; and German shepherds and shepherd crosses, 7.8%. Rottweilers and golden retrievers have been cited as breeds in which CCL disease is common. In our survey, they made up 4% and 4.6% of all CCL patients, respectively.

 

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Interesting debate. I've always considered them a large breed dog. I think they are a medium height breed, but overall are large (big bones, stocky build, higher weight).

My vet considers them large breed. The heartworm pills I give are large breed.

I had a mixed breed dog that weighed 40 lbs. He was considered a medium dog.
 

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Well.... Wesley looms large in my heart.
 

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Libby is definately a large dog, but my boss has a chocolate lab that weighs only 48 pounds. If I looked at her, I'd call her a medium breed. So, I guess I don't know. Really though, if the breed standard says medium, I'd go with that. Labs are no where near the size of a St. Bernard, Newfie, Dane, etc. Just because some of them are bred to be bigger, doesn't mean they change the standard. But if I told my Mom Libby was a medium sized dog, she'd think I'm nuts.
 

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I'd say medium size. If you average the height of the smallest and largest breed of dog, I believe Labs would be right in the middle. They're talking about height at the shoulder and not weight in the standard IMO.
 

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Bob, you're turning into a troll. ;)

Labs are NOT a large breed dog, regardless of what the dog food companies are trying to sell. Believe it or not, it's your choice but I do not appreciate your bringing me up time and time again.
 

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So, Joflake's boss has a 48 lb Lab. HK is 56 lbs (and I will add petite, trim and slim). I know several in the 60-80 lb range. My son's, Newman, is 95 lbs and skinny. He is tall and has a huge head.

When out and we run into strangers, we get comments at how small HK is. How it would be wonderful if they could count on a Lab being her size and that they would then think about getting one. They just don't think they could handle a large dog like the average Lab. Where is the limit? Where do people's perception of Large verses Medium occur? I think that is Bob's real question, maybe not. I accept that the AKC has spoken on the standard, but ......

When out with my son's dog, Newman, the comments are quite different. Wow! He is a big boy! Wow! That is one large Lab! Same breed, totally dog specific comments, and not to the generic Lab Breed. I think we form our definition based on the ones we are familiar with and based on what our desire is.

Where we live can also have an effect. i.e., this is now deviating from Labs. About 20 years ago we had a GR. Great female dog, of average GR stature, that we lost to cancer. But one day, she ran off. It was a couple hours before the kids call to report her missing. By the time I got home, she was back. WITH TWO OF THE BIGGEST GRs I HAVE EVER SEEN. And haven't seen since. I located the owner, and he came to pick them up. He got them from a breeder here that was breeding for size and nothing else. So, if somethig like that gets popular in a local area, then what we are comparing may not really be what we think we are comparing.

For purposes of definition of the breed, I think we have to go by the standard definiton.
 

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I think a properly bred Lab is a medium sized dog. There are so many that are not bred to the standard (also Golden retreivers) that overall Labs as a group may be on the larger size. Blaise is 4 inches shorter at the shoulder than Diesel. They weigh about the same - 75#. Blaise looks to me like a medium dog and Dee is large.

There is a lot of attraction on the part of the pet buying public to want large specimens of their breed of choice. For a while there GSDs were being bred HUGE and as I mentioned above the average Golden you see is too tall to meet their standard.
 

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Interesting...I would say I'm in the "medium" party, especially with our two boys. Clarence is very short but boxy/stocky, weighing 72 lbs. People comment about his big, blocky head but not about his general size. He is certainly a medium dog to me--especially next to the Great Dane who lives up the street. Fitzgerald is significantly taller than Clarence but very lanky and thin, he's at 64 lbs. He doesn't have a blocky head and I've never had any comments about his size, except for people think he's still a puppy (I think from the lankiness). He's definitely a medium sized dog to me as are most labs I have encountered.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Bob, you're turning into a troll.

Labs are NOT a large breed dog, regardless of what the dog food companies are trying to sell. Believe it or not, it's your choice but I do not appreciate your bringing me up time and time again.
Laura, just as insistently and consistently as you post Labs are NOT a large bred dog, I will just as insistently and consistently say they are considered large breed by most.

Surely, you don't have some permit to state your opinion and belief that is denied to me?

Laura, I do not doubt for a moment that dog food companies use every thing they can find to sell more dog food.

Some DF companies have used the results of canine nutritional science to sell LB dog food. SOME DF companies make adult DF that is suitable for puppies -- but certainly not all.

I certainly think DF companies do whatever they can to sell more food.

BUT what about the quote from newmanveterinary? larger (greater than 60 lbs.) breeds.

And from peteducation? primarily a disease of large and giant breeds. German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers, Rottweilers, Great Danes, Golden Retrievers, and Saint Bernards appear to have a higher incidence.

And from PennHip? the most common inherited joint problem of large breed dogs.... like the Akita, German Shepherd Dog, Labrador and Golden retrievers, and the Rottweiler.

They're not selling dog food.

And they're not trolls because they believe something other than what you believe.

Laura, you've done a number of kindnesses for me over the past years which I appreciate -- given me the URL for backup boards, etc. And I'm sure many other JLers feel similarly. So I do NOT bring this up because I have any grudge or animosity toward you.

This is a difference of opinion in which you're entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine. If we had a difference about what the best flower is or the best cookie, I'd not bother. But this is about the future health of Labradors.

I think you're wrong on this point and that you restating over and over that Labs are not LB dogs and should not be fed a LBP food can possibly damage some Lab puppies. So, whenever I see you post your claim, I will post mine -- NOT because I want to hurt you but because I don't want to see any Lab puppies hurt by misinformation.

 

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I just did a random search on "small medium large dog breed" and got the following definitions from the first site on the list.

Not that I would consider "selectsmart.com" an authority, but these seem like reasonable delineations to me (although I usually see the term "Giant" used instead of "Enormous").

Pocket: Under 5 lbs/2.3 kg.
Tiny: 5 to 12 lbs./2.3 to 5.4 kg.
Miniature: 13 to 25 lbs/5.9 to 11.3 kg.
Small: 26 to 39 lbs/11.8 to 17.7 kg.
Medium: 40 to 59 lbs/18.1 to 26.8 kg.
Large: 60 to 89 lbs/27.2 to 40.4 kg.
Very large: 90 to 105 lbs/40.8 to 47.6 kg.
Enormous: 105 lbs./47.6 kg. & up
 

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What a silly debate. Labs are "medium" by the definition of the lab standard.

Dog food definitions, lab board definitions, personal definitions based on seeing only several labs do not count.

"My dog weighs xxx" is not the way you define what a breed is......LOL

Besides what does it matter?
 

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I don't think you are using "large" and "medium" in the same way. I'm not a scientist, but my guess is that from the point of view of nutrition, "large" and "medium" will end up being incoherent if you look deeply enough.

The question is, what protein/calcium/phosphorus levels do Labs tend to need at different points of their development? Isn't it? Not whether the dogs are "large" or "medium" or "oblong" or "trapezoidal."
 

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What a silly debate. Labs are "medium" by the definition of the lab standard.

Dog food definitions, lab board definitions, personal definitions based on seeing only several labs do not count.

"My dog weighs xxx" is not the way you define what a breed is......LOL

Besides what does it matter?

Because some people have to be "right" about everything or they get twisted and want to debate it until they have everyone agreeing with them. and some are just anal about everything regardless the topic. ;)
 

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I don't think you are using "large" and "medium" in the same way. I'm not a scientist, but my guess is that from the point of view of nutrition, "large" and "medium" will end up being incoherent if you look deeply enough.

The question is, what protein/calcium/phosphorus levels do Labs tend to need at different points of their development? Isn't it? Not whether the dogs are "large" or "medium" or "oblong" or "trapezoidal."
Very good point.
 

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Per the standard, they're medium dogs...at least the ones that were bred with an ounce of thought put towards that standard.

The freakish bohemouth labradors are a completely different thing...and I don't feed Large breed dog food :)
 

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I won't feed large breed DF, even to a large breed dog. Which a Lab is not.
 

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NOT because I want to hurt you but because I don't want to see any Lab puppies hurt by misinformation.
You are so full of yourself Bob. I would never give information that would hurt ANY Lab puppies. To even suggest it is bordering on defamation. Tread very carefully.
 

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I consider them medium-sized dogs, but on the top end of that scale. Just like you wrote down some large breed dogs, but labs are typically the smallest out of that group.

I think it also depends on your frame of reference with dogs. I think my boys at 2 years of age and 80# approximately are small, considering our oldest lab is 95# and just hits the upper end of the height standard. My 70# Grace looks SMALL to me.
 

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To be honest - I thought Labs were large breed until I was owned by these two...now I am convinced they're a medium breed. Much smaller than even a Shepard...and smaller than they seemed b4 owning one!
 
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