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Discussion Starter #1
I'm curious...

What are the risks of a healthy adult dog contracting distemper/adenovirus (is this hepatitis?)/parainfluenza/parvo and the severity of the subsequent illness?

For example, I know parvo is deadly to pups, but is it equally horrible to adult dogs? Elderly dogs?
 

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Distemper is mostly a disease of young puppies but it can occur in adults and because there is a very high mortality rate and no known cure, it might make sense to vaccinate for it (although a vaccine given after 12 weeks should be good for life, especially as the maternal antibodies for distemper seem to wane earlier than parvo, at about 8 weeks).
Parvo is almost exclusively found in puppies and is almost always self limiting in healthy adults. My opinion is it is not necessary for adults.
There are two type of adenovirus (CAV): type 1 is hepatitis which attacks the liver and other organs, and type 2 is pretty much kennel cough, affecting the respiratory tract. Canine hepatitis can have a high mortality rate.

Having said, that, if your puppy was vaccinated, the odds of a healthy dog contracting any of these disease is very, very low, even if he is never vaccinated again.

Here is a direct quote from immunologist Jean Dodds, DVM.

“Why should we be giving pets foreign substances when they do not need them,” said Dodds, who has researched the vaccination guidelines for over 30 years. Veterinarians, she said, have been giving annual vaccinations simply because it’s assumed they are needed and were recommended by the United States Department of Agriculture.

“There never was any data that suggested vaccines must be given yearly,” Dodds said. “Veterinarians assumed there was data but there wasn’t.” Vaccines like parvovirus and canine distemper are responsible for many diseases of the immune system in dogs, she contends. Anemia, arthritis, epilepsy, thyroid disease, liver failure, diabetes, allergies and other conditions, she believes, are linked to vaccines.

“Approximately five to 10 percent will develop problems,” Dodds said. “That increases to 20 percent in pure breeds.” Irish Setters, Great Danes, German Shepherds, weimaraners and akitas are at higher risk of developing Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy, a bone disease that causes a 107 degree fever, pain, and the inability to walk as a result of vaccinations, she said.

“But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life.

No effect

However, if another vaccine is given a year later, antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the second vaccine, producing little or no effect.Not only are annual boosters for parvovirus and distemper unnecessary, they subject a pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated hemolytic anemia, a life threatening disease that generally has unknown causes, said Dodds. There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of these vaccines, she said.

Dr. Bob Rogers, DVM, Critter Fixer Pet Hospital, in Texas, agrees.

“Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life.

“Every three years is probably a completely arbitrary number,” Dr. Rogers adds. “I’ve told my clients that after one year of age they don’t need to vaccinate anymore.” Rogers estimates that in nine years, he has used this protocol on some 30,000 dogs – “and I haven’t had one vaccine ‘break’ [failure].”

Compare that to the odds of allergies, arthritis, cancer, etc., and I find the re-vaccination answer is pretty obvious :angel:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks, Dana!! :D
 

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Parvo is almost exclusively found in puppies and is almost always self limiting in healthy adults.
I don't know if it's regional, but that most certainly is not the case here - and I can vouch from personal experience. I used to work at a vet clinic, and it seemed the summer months (more dogs out, greater interaction, etc.) brought the highest frequency and by no mean is it limited to, or largely related to puppies. We saw it hit dogs of all ages, though the lethality was higher in puppies and senior dogs (or dogs with compromised immunities).
 

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Do you think there is any corrolation between the adults you saw with Parvo and people who may just not have even bothered vaccinating their puppies? You know that people get dogs from all over, and under all sort of pretenses, so I am wondering if the Parvo in adult dogs may have had other extenuating circumstances aside from being healthy dogs, vaccinated as puppies, now getting ill??
 

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CYNLABS said:
Do you think there is any corrolation between the adults you saw with Parvo and people who may just not have even bothered vaccinating their puppies? You know that people get dogs from all over, and under all sort of pretenses, so I am wondering if the Parvo in adult dogs may have had other extenuating circumstances aside from being healthy dogs, vaccinated as puppies, now getting ill??
Oh yeah, but I was assuming that we were talking about unvaccinated dogs. One major reason the virus is more common in puppies is because adults are typically vaccinated. Perhaps I misunderstood what henrysmom was asking.

It's hard to tell, though, because some people just dropped off dogs that were sick and had little to no medical history, but the vets seemed to think the vast majority were not vaccinated.

There could be a million reasons - was it solely because they weren't vaccinated, or was it because they weren't properly taken care of? Who knows. My guess is that if a dog is never vaccinated, they can either get parvo and die as a pup or develop an immunity. The adult dogs we saw probably were never vaccinated and came into contact with the virus later on in life. I don't know the answer, but I do know vets see plenty of adult dogs - for whatever reasons.

Edit:
I see now what you're getting at...a dog that was properly vaccinated as a puppy and then not revaccinated again. I think, though, that goes more to the efficacy of the vaccine as opposed to mere age (which is why I was brining up the adult dogs that also get parvo).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
My bad, I wasn't clear in asking...

This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?

Sorry, Nick!
 

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...a dog that was properly vaccinated as a puppy and then not revaccinated again. I think, though, that goes more to the efficacy of the vaccine as opposed to mere age (which is why I was brining up the adult dogs that also get parvo).
Breeders and pet owners who do not vaccinate for parvo carefully exose our puppies to more and more dogs and gradually to areas where there is more dog traffic. In order to stimulate natural immunity, we make sure that our puppies are not isolated but are carefully and systematically exposed to all those bugs out there so that the body can build immunity. I work at a shelter and have had parvo in my house once and it only affected one of my puppies...the rest were fine (as was he after a couple of days).

The reason puppies succumb to parvo and distemper is that they have immature immune systems and in the case of very young puppies, passive immune systems. As puppies and dogs are exposed to viruses, the immune system becomes 'greased' and becomes more and more effective at creating immunity, even in the face of a novel virus.

Generally, adult dogs should have been exposed to virtually everything IF they are allowed to be out of the house and exposed to all the bugs and viruses that lay on the streets and in the parks. IMO, so many dogs are just kept at home (especially puppies who people fear will drop dead if they took them to a park before they turn 4 months), and their immune systems do not get enough practice and become sluggish. Of course, this is an even bigger problem when they are stressed, lacking proper nutrition and constantly dealing with frontline applications, wormers, drugs for everything under the sun, etc. On top of that, people who have busy lives these days and have no time for a dog but get them anyway. They are underexercised and understimulated and become idiots that are relegate to the home or the yard because they can not be taken anywhere. These dogs have never been given the chance to acquire natural immunity and when they encounter something like parvo, they are unable to surmount an immune challenge.

Most adult dogs have some level of exposure to the environment and have better functioning immune systems, so can take parvo in stride.

Vaccination does not create immunity. It stimulates the immune system which in turn builds immunity. We can create immunity without vaccinations and in a normal situation, the older the dog, the more he has been exposed, so the better his immunity (assuming he is a healthy dog of course). So it is not completely the efficacy of the vaccine that is at work. In short, older healthy typically dogs have better functioning immune systems.
 

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This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?
The risk is > 5% in lab animals who are exposed to very high levels of pathogen.
How severe will the subsequent illness be? There's the rub...it depends entirely on the health and immunity of your animal. This is where you must decide whether you want to prevent the 5% risk by vaccinating (which will almost definitely negatively impact his health and immunity), or accept the 5% risk and do your best to build his health and immune system so that in the unlikely event he does become ill, his body can successfully fight it off.
 

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henrysmom said:
My bad, I wasn't clear in asking...

This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?

Sorry, Nick!
No problem at all. Well, if you want a definitive answer, you won't get one that has sound backing. Until there is more researching detailing the true lifespan of immunity derived from vaccines, it's an unsettled area. The trend is certainly that they last a lot longer than people originally believed.

I can tell you that Jes just had his three year boosters, and will be due another one at age 7, and that's it for boosters (other than rabies due to the law). I can tell you I've had vets say that may be overdoing and other saying that's way too risky and they need 3-years boosters forever.

Undoubtedly this is a pretty contentious area even for vets. I have a cousin in vet school down at Auburn and she said there are quite the heated debates regarding just how long vaccination-induced immunities last. Who knows, I may not have him revaccinated at 7 years of age, it just depends. My gut is that the chances are significantly lower (even if the vaccine wasn't readministered after the first booster) - especially since, from what we could tell, almost all of the dogs with parvo (regardless of age) were not vaccinated. But, since I don't have any hard data to back it up, it's just my opinion.
 

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No problem at all. Well, if you want a definitive answer, you won't get one that has sound backing.
This is as sound as it gets and the reason why Jean Dodds is committed to the Rabies Challenge and why Dr.'s Shultz and Carmichael are currently doing a study longer than seven years

http://www.fallriverlabs.com/Considerations%20in%20Designing%20Effective%20and%20Safe%20Vaccination%20Programs%20for%20Dogs.htm

There is an extensive link of references and a link to his original study for those who are inclined to read them.

Here is an important excerpt:

Our research on duration of immunity for the CPV-2, CDV and CAV vaccines has demonstrated a minimum duration of immunity of 7 years; the maximum duration of immunity may be for the life of most (>80%) vaccinated animals.
 

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If that satisfies you, more power to you. I prefer to see stuff repeated per the scientific method. I'm not saying she's wrong, I'm just saying that area is a little barren at the moment in terms of long-term studies.

Although, after you've criticized studies supported by people with an agenda (i.e. kibble manufacturers), I'm a bit surprised you'd wholeheartedly endorse a study funded by people financially invested in seeing research showing vaccines last a lot longer than the manufacturers argue. Personally, I don't think it taints the Challenge Fund but then I never found merit in earlier criticisms regarding kibble either. All-in-all, it's just a bit puzzling to me.
 

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I'm a bit surprised you'd wholeheartedly endorse a study funded by people financially invested in seeing research showing vaccines last a lot longer than the manufacturers argue
First, I certainly do not wholeheartedly endorse it but it does answer to the efficacy of vaccinations.
Second, I'm sorry, this statement doesn't make sense so I can't answer to it. I'm not sure what crime you are accusing me of. Third, the area is not barren of long term studies, only in canines. If you want to vaccinate yearly or every three years for polio, chicken pox, measles, etc., etc., be my guest, but the need for revaccination has not been shown to be a requirement in humans and there is no reason in the world to assume dogs would be any different.

As for the manufacturers, I'm sure you are aware that to date they have not been able to back up their label claims for annual vaccination even when they advocate it.

Please remember folks, this is the HOLISTIC CARE section. People come to this section to learn more about alternative methods to health care...there are plenty of other areas to learn about allopathic care. Holistic medicine embraces a non-pharmaceutical and non-invasive approach to health care so it would be nice if people kept that in mind when posting to this little corner of the forum. Please try to keep a bit of an open mind if these threads are to continue to be productive and not antagonistic.
 

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Last I checked, you weren't the gatekeeper of all things holistic so I don't feel a need to follow your word to a "t" less I be labeled anything but an interested person in holistic care. If you feel that the research is equally applicable regardless of the species, by all means go for it. If you feel that canine vaccines have sufficiently be researched, great. Me personally, I've seen enough research that varies from species-to-species that I'd like to see more.

Having said that, I did follow Dodd's recommendations, that doesn't mean I think it's infallible. I think you need to learn that people aren't going to accept your personal interpretations of studies verbatim - that's not being antagonistic, that's being diligent and pragmatic. Get used to it.
 

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You certainly don't need to accept what I say...that is certainly not what I ask and we've been down this raod before. I just ask that everyone who visits here be a bit more accepting of holistic methods. I can't require it as I am not the gatekeeper as you say, but I am within my rights to ask.

Recent threads (from a number of members) have been very derogatory toward holistic practices and I hope you can see why that irks me and why it has prompted me to request a little more respect for the subject that should be at hand. Does it really seem appropriate to you that we should advocate drugs and chemicals in the holistic health sub section? People already know where to find that in abundance.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread... :)
 

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FallRiver said:
You certainly don't need to accept what I say...that is certainly not what I ask and we've been down this raod before. I just ask that everyone who visits here be a bit more accepting of holistic methods. I can't require it as I am not the gatekeeper as you say, but I am within my rights to ask.

Recent threads (from a number of members) have been very derogatory toward holistic practices and I hope you can see why that irks me and why it has prompted me to request a little more respect for the subject that should be at hand. Does it really seem appropriate to you that we should advocate drugs and chemicals in the holistic health sub section? People already know where to find that in abundance.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread... :)
This is a sub-section about holistic health, not just for advocating holistic health. Which means this is the proper place to discuss <b>both</b> the merits and the drawbacks of holistic approaches. Which means if you want to start a thread about how adding chinese ginseng powder to your dog's food improved her coat, you put it here. But if someone else wants to post a real scientific study that says chinese ginseng causes degradation of the cartilage in the joints, that goes here too. (Note: I completely made up the Chinese ginseng thing purely as an example. I know nothing about the effect of ginseng on dogs one way or the other.) So if you want a forum where everyone accepts and promotes holistic medicine simply "on faith" as you do, go somewhere else. The rest of us can have discussions about the real-world consequences of holistic medicine and traditional medicine, and when it is best to use one or the other for the overall best health of our dogs. Quite frankly, blind adherents to either extreme probably don't have much of benefit to add to that discussion.
 

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I'm going to play devil's advocate again.

Anemia, arthritis, epilepsy, thyroid disease, liver failure, diabetes, allergies and other conditions, she believes, are linked to vaccines.
SHE BELIEVES. I see no science backing up her belief.

Again, disease like these are more likely caused by environment than by vaccine. If we knew vaccines were causing these diseases we could cure these diseases. I just do not like over simplified statements like She Believes.

Compare how many dogs have no ill effect through a lifetime of being vacinnated to how many dogs die from preventable diseases from not being vaccinated. Those numbers are real and revealing as well.

Please don't take what you read on any internet forum as gospel for the continued care and health of your dog. Work with your vet.

No I am not a vet, nor do I play one on TV ;)
 

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Incidentally, the raccoon population in the GTA (and I would assume the rest of Southern ON as well) has recurring epidemics of distemper.

I wouldn't consider distemper an optional vaccine for that reason (and I know you were asking about frequency, Felicia, not necessity) but I would hesitate to take chances with it
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hey Nancy, I've heard the same as well for around where we are. :(
 

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raian said:
I'm going to play devil's advocate again.

Anemia, arthritis, epilepsy, thyroid disease, liver failure, diabetes, allergies and other conditions, she believes, are linked to vaccines.
SHE BELIEVES. I see no science backing up her belief.

Again, disease like these are more likely caused by environment than by vaccine. If we knew vaccines were causing these diseases we could cure these diseases. I just do not like over simplified statements like She Believes.

Compare how many dogs have no ill effect through a lifetime of being vacinnated to how many dogs die from preventable diseases from not being vaccinated. Those numbers are real and revealing as well.

First of all Jean Dodd is highly repspected in the veterinary world. Second she isn't the only one saying these things. She's just quoted more than anyone else. More vets from around the world are advocating this. Even the American Animal Hospital Association dropped the annual vaccine protycal. I was looking for it on the AAHA website but could not find it right off, but they had a link to a place in their site where they listed the noticed side effects of the vaccines which included those Dana listed. Man, I wish I could find that again. Their site is soooooooooo big. They now advocate a 3 year rather than the annual but they were talking about a lot of the side effects. With each shot a child or adult gets there is a sheet that is suppose to be given that lists the side effects. Why don't vets give this out? I'm terrible--doctors hated me when Mom was sick--I researched, asked questions and wanted the list of known side effects of things they were doing to her. I have a right to know.

Yes the vaccines cause it in that they weaken the immune system so that the body cannot fight off the eviormental. Some dogs have little effect. My Tobie and now Caleb have had more visible problems with vaccines. Becca--she could have eatten garbage, ate the vaccines daily for desert and still been healthy. That was her. But not all are like her. I wish I knew then with Tobie what I know now with Caleb. I can all ready see such a huge difference in Caleb compared to my other two.

Anyway, it's up to each to decide what is right or wrong but be challenged to step outside the box of what we have all been taught. I was that problematic child that never took the "simple" answer but always wanted to know and understand more. Geez, no wonder Mom was so neurotic!
 
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