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Discussion Starter #1
I know there are no experts here, but I do have a question.

Are OFA scores and Pennhip percentiles only as good as the dog's worst hip?

For example, i

1) If a dog has one hip that is OFA Excellent and one that is OFA good, would the radiologist call it a 'Good' for the record?

2) Dog has one OFA Excellent and one OFA Fair - would the score be an average of good or would it be a 'fair'?

3) a dog had a DI of .28 and a .37 would the percentile (rating compared to other dogs of the same breed) be based on the .37? Or an average?

I would think the scores would be based on the dog's worst hip, but I am not sure.
 

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I am no expert but I haven't heard of dog with hips varying that much. But I suppose they would give it an overall score based on the worst hip....
 

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I don't know much about OFA, because personally I don't like it. However, I do know a little about PennHIP.

Each hip gets a DI score but each dog gets a percentile score. So, Jake's left hip had a DI of 0.38 (median DI for labs is 0.48) and his right hip had a DI of 0.28. He is in the 80th percentile (I had to get out his chart to make sure, I thought they gave an exact percentage, but that was in my head apparently).

I believe, and it was my understanding from the doctor, that his score was based on an average of the two distraction indexes, so his average DI would've been a 0.33. According to PennHIP there is a low chance of DJD when the score is close to 0.30, higher as it gets close to 0.70. But, some say the problem with the percentiles is that they change over time, so a 90th percentile today could be a 70th percentile 10 years from now. (I don't buy this as a problem personally) Our sheet says the breed specific evaluations are analyzed semi-annually.

There is an 800 number for PennHIP, and they were very nice when I called after we got Jake's results, it's 800-PENNHIP or 610-640-1244. Sorry I don't have a definite answer, I thought it was an average, but as I'm typing this I'm not so sure anymore :-\ Are you getting your lab evaluated?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the info. I just called them and it is the looser of the two hips that determines the percentile.

It is NOT an average which makes perfect sense to me and the way it should be. I hope OFA is the same.

So, you mentioned your dog was in the 80th percentile, that means that is for the worser of the two hips. The better hip .28, is probably in the upper 90s.
 

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Thanks so much for letting me know :D I am really a big fan of PennHIP (in case you couldn't already tell) so this just makes me like them more!
 

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Yes there was also a study that showed how Pennhip was much more accurate at predicting Osteo Arthritis. OA is the result of dysplasia. PennHip does three x-rays and OFA only does one . If you get a pennHip done you can also send the one X-ray to OFA and have them give a rating too. Also OFA does seperate out the hips I noticed yesterday that one dog I looked at had a mild dysplasia rating and it said right hip affected.

Kelly and Amber
 

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Do you recommend getting a PennHip for dogs that have been spayed and will not be bred in order to be aware of what their future might hold?

My beloved Bess began having hip problems at 13 years and it slowed her down considerably. I'm feeding Puff G&C daily hoping to stave off or alleviate future joint problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
At 13 years of age almost all dogs will slow down...

I just got Pennhip done on my neutered lab, just for that reason - to know for the future. While I was at it, I had them do an extra film to send to OFA. He is only 12 months, but between Pennhip and OFA, I am 99% sure the results will be accurate.

I got the OFA back and they came back "Good". I am waiting on Pennhip????

I prefer pennhip as well and the fact you can do it so early, will great reliability is a very helpful.

While Pennhip costs a lot more, think about it this way. If you find out your dog has OFA good or excellent hips and his OFA results come back in the 70-90th percentile, you could save hundreds of dollars over the next 5-9 years on not giving your dog glucosamine and other joint supplements. I know there are other joints in the body...but IMO, if hips are clear based on Pennhip and OFA and elbows are clear as well, well....IMO, supplementing with joints supplements is a waste of money..>Especially considering the lack of evidence out there that is does anything. Don't get me wrong...I think its worth taking for many, including myself, as there are no side effects except $$$.
 

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If anyone's interested, I recently read that a PennHIP results database will be coming soon, maybe within a few months. At first, it'll have results from the past couple of years, then older results will be added. (Maybe everybody already knew this).
 

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Bob Pr. said:
Do you recommend getting a PennHip for dogs that have been spayed and will not be bred in order to be aware of what their future might hold?
That's what we did :) I think if you have the money it's a great thing to do - the university vet hospital you take Puff to should be able to do it there Bob. Jake got his done at NC State and now I know he's got a low risk. He had questionable radiographs at 4 months and I wanted to have an expert do it to be sure of what we were dealing with - thank goodness it's nothing.

In a holistic view, it's better for the breed the more dogs that are PennHIP'd (we get a more accurate view of the median) - if all breeders did PennHIP instead of OFA and only bred the dogs with the tightest of hips, think of how fast we could move the average up! Hey, a girl can dream right?
 

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Interesting theory. I still give G/C to my boy who is OFA Good/Elbows Normal just for good joint health.

Honestly, for a pet that is altered, I wouldn't waste my money on OFA or PennHip, let alone both.
 

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CYNLABS said:
Interesting theory. I still give G/C to my boy who is OFA Good/Elbows Normal just for good joint health.

Honestly, for a pet that is altered, I wouldn't waste my money on OFA or PennHip, let alone both.
Well it does help in a variety of ways if you know that your dog has this disease because you can delay some of the effects by 2 years if you do certain things. So is the cost of the checks worth 2 more years of less pain for the dog?
Also the cost of sending a film to OFA is only $35. Also alot of us here do compete in various sports with our dogs. Amber who is spayed competes often in about 5 different sports.
Also if you think that hip dysplasia is rare...OFA reports that 1 out of 5 Labs checked has hip dysplasia. I don't know what the stats and costs are from PennHip.

Kelly and Amber
 

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Kzunell said:
Yes there was also a study that showed how Pennhip was much more accurate at predicting Osteo Arthritis. OA is the result of dysplasia.
From what I understand Pennhip measures "laxity" and laxity in the hip join is what causes the arthritis. I don't believe that OFA measures laxity thus it isn't a good predictor of what your dogs hips might look like a year or two down the road. I wish more breeders were using Pennhip. :-\
 

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....it's not just $35 for OFA....Don't forget to add the $150-$250 for xrays to even check for HD and ED. Depending on the vet, their caliber and if they do digital xrays or standard.

Still wouldn't do it. I work Maddy in OB, Rally and the field, she's had ED and ED surgery. We have noticed nothing in her hips that would even lead us to suspect anything, and she comes from a long line of good/excellent hips (breeder didn't do elbows, plus we suspect it was 100% environmental).

I understand the point ya'll are trying to make with knowledge is prevention and maybe it's OK to spend that money when you have ONE dog. After 3 dogs, I start deciding what's worth spending my money on and normally it's not for xrays to see if the dog is predisposed to a problem just for the kicks of it. I treat all problems as they occur. Even with showing and competing with all three of my dogs...
 

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I just decided if I couldn't afford hip checks I couldn't afford the dog. Just the same as if I couldn't afford to spay her I couldn't afford Amber. I would love to have a second or third lab but have decided I cannot afford it right now. Also it provides more information for the breeders so they can create better breedings and isn't a better healthier lab breed a good goal? Its also a good thing to do just from the standpoint of your dogs hip gaurentee.

Kelly and Amber
 

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labby said:
I had a dog score low in the percentile for Labs. This was years ago. The dog's hips has not changed and they do not have any type of hip/joint disease. I did PennHip for an experiment and I wasn't impressed. Just because they say the dog is low in the percentile does NOT mean the dog will develop any disease. I doubt if I will have another dog PH'ed.
PennHIP doesn't claim to predict the future, the low percentile just states the dog is at a higher risk of developing DJD, not that it necessarily will. Did you have that dog submitted to OFA? I'd be curious to know what OFA rated the dog - just for comparison :) (Aside from the argument that the dog may have degenerative changes in the joint that aren't manifested in lameness at this point - this could be told by a radiograph of course, but no reason to do it if there's no pain other than to validate or disprove PennHIP.)

I don't see how breeders can argue that OFA ratings are better for the breed in the long run though. I understand breeders have a large number of dogs compared to my lone boy, so the cost of PennHIP for each one (about $300) might be prohibitive - but how can something that rates how tight hips are be continually overlooked by those seeking to better the breed?
 
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