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proper e-collar use

2K views 16 replies 9 participants last post by  Bob Pr. 
#1 ·
i know, i know, there are plenty of e-collar threads on this site. but i have a very specific question for those of you who have a good understanding of their proper use. i have put in the work and trained my 9 month old lab/german pointer mix. she knows her basic commands well and she is generally a well-behaved dog, aside from the general rowdiness that comes with puppyhood. as you can imagine, she needs alot of exercise (GSPs can be even more hype than labs). she especially likes to run. as a result, we spend alot of time in the woods and at the beach, off leash. this is where my two major problems arise. she will come when called UNLESS she has better things to do. if she gets distracted by passers by, or she is finds something on the ground to eat (usually sticks). she will eat anything in her path, chewing and swallowing sticks, bark, shells, and even jellyfish. anything and everything. when she hears me call her when she is into something she shouldnt be into, she picks it up and runs around trying to get me to chase her. it worries me because she eats ALOT of sticks. its a problem we've always had. she obeys "drop it", as long as she is on the leash. but off leash, she knows i cannot control her and she takes full advantage. also, when we get back around the car, she will not come when called. she's a pretty smart dog and she seems to take full advantage when she knows i can not correct her. she is not all that interested in treats either. for the sole purpose of giving her a correction when she doesnt obey the "come" command, is it ok to use an e-collar (of course after learning about and following though on a proper introduction process, etc.)? i consider myself a very conscienious and attentive dog owner and i ont want use anything that may cause more harm than good. but lately i have been feeling like the more time that passes, the more she is learn how to train ME, and i would like to nip it in the bud.
any advice would be appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
What i have learned from using a e-collar with haylee is to train her manually first off! Then use the collar as a reminder afterwords. You HAVE to leash train her first to do atleast heel, sit, stay, down, come before you can use the collar. I made the mistake at first just using the collar, and it made her fearful whenever i put it on her afterwords, And I had it turned to a low setting ( 2 of 8 ). After a couple months of leash training with the collar on she learned it was ok to have on her and not be affraid. The collar is only supposed to simply serve as a reminder, almost a light pressure like a leash tug, to obey.I hope this helps
Dave
 
#3 ·
You have to train her without the collar first. She obviously doesn't have any sort of solid recall...so don't let her off leash. Sorry. If you want to build her recall, then get a check chord and work on it that way. But to use it for recall when she doesn't have a good understanding of it or to curb eating sticks...well, the use seems pretty lazy to me. I had a rescue litter of lab/gsp mixes, so I know the level...however, you can train anything...and unless the dog can be trusted off leash, it shouldn't be let off leash. JMO.
 
#4 ·
Dani said:
You have to train her without the collar first. She obviously doesn't have any sort of solid recall...so don't let her off leash. Sorry. If you want to build her recall, then get a check chord and work on it that way. But to use it for recall when she doesn't have a good understanding of it or to curb eating sticks...well, the use seems pretty lazy to me. I had a rescue litter of lab/gsp mixes, so I know the level...however, you can train anything...and unless the dog can be trusted off leash, it shouldn't be let off leash. JMO.
+1

If she is not coming to you when there are basic distractions (sticks, jellyfish), she doesn't know the recall. Go back to square one.

Sunjin or Dana (fallriver) has a thread somewhere about how to teach a good recall. I think it had that over 800-1000 GOOD repetitions are needed- not just you calling the dog and the dog not coming. I agree with Dani that a 50ft check cord is the answer. If she gets too far, step on it. If you want to call her and she isn't listening, step on it, then tug- then praise/treat.

And a lab (even mix) that isnt interested in treats? What are you using? Try sausage. Hot dogs. String cheese. You get the picture.
 
#5 ·
i probably didnt explain myself well enough in my original post (i have a tendency to do that). she is trained. she has the come command down cold. she will come when called for great distances. she will come when called when she is playing with other dogs. she will come when called indoor with distractions. at times, when we've been in the woods and she wanders a little too far, she will come when called without even being able to see where the command is coming from. also, she is trained in all the basic commands. sit stay down heel. she heels off leash. she knows sit and down at a distance. BUT, its those times when she is after eating something on the ground, or when we are getting close to the car/house (and she knows its time to finish playing), that she ignores the command to come.
i will certainly put more time into all these things in the hopes that she will "snap out of it" and come under every single circumstance. its just a gut feeling thats telling me she understands certain situations i will not be able to break her of her urge to do her own thing at those times. but i defer to your advice and i will go back to the drawing board with recall and see if i can work through it before i ever put an ecollar on her. thanks.
 
#6 ·
thanks gabbysmom. well, to say that she isnt interested in treats at all isnt true. like the recall issue, she acts differently in certain situations when she is fixated. for instance, if we are out in the woods or on the beach and there are no distractions, she would run a mile over broken glass for a treat (i use old mother hubbard treats and she seems to love'em). again, theres a BUT....when she is eating a stick or i am trying to teach her a reliable "fetch", she will completely ignore the treat. in the fetch situation, when she bring the ball/dummy back and drops it, even if i ofer her a treat she wont take it. she wont budge. she just stare insanely at the ball until i throw it again.
 
#7 ·
pross1492 said:
BUT, its those times when she is after eating something on the ground, or when we are getting close to the car/house (and she knows its time to finish playing), that she ignores the command to come.
Then she's not 100% reliable. You answered your own question.
 
#9 ·
Make sure the dog knows the commands before you start using the e collar. Once your dog knows the commands, for reinforcement, an e collar can be used. Also what may help in your situation and that your dog may be thinking he is alpha... ignoring your commands because something else is more interesting... try practicing being alpha. Alpha leads the pack.
 
#10 ·
She sounds like a pretty normal dog if you ask me. In fact, if her recall is as good as you say it is, her level of training/obedience sounds much better than your average 9 month old dog.

My dogs go off leash and none of them have a 'perfect' recall. I honestly don't think that a perfect recall exists. Obviously, your dog needs to have a SOLID recall before you let it off leash, but I guess that everyone has a different definition of what 'solid' is. For me, a solid recall is having a dog that will come to me in the face of distractions such as people, other dogs, horses, wild animals, etc. If you can recall a dog against those things AND control it off leash around those things, IMO, you have a reliable recall.

From my experience, I don't know a single Lab owner that doesn't have trouble with their Lab eating things off the ground, or picking up things they shouldn't while they are on a walk and off leash. It is inevitable. My adult dogs do this and even now if they pick up something that is particularly appealing to them, particularly if its edible, they are often hesitant drop it. Why wouldn't they be? they are Labs. LOL. If it's edible, 99% of the time they have swallowed it before I can utter a 'LEAVE IT!'. In that scenario, I don't make a big deal of it. In fact, I ignore it. You can't control the environment and you take the risk of your dog eating nasties if you let it off leash.

If they pick up a non-edible item, it is a case of reinforcing the 'LEAVE IT!' command and then giving them a small food reward or a throw of their bumper for compliance. No electric collars or verbal/physical corrections necessary. If you implement reward based training you will be working with them and not against them.

In regard to her not complying with the recall command when you get close your house and car, this is very easily solved without the use of punishment. Dogs are highly intelligent and they pick up on our routines faster than you would know. To your dog, house/car = end of fun. Playing up is her way of controlling the situation -- she knows that if she continues to goof around and NOT come to you, that leash doesn't get put on and the fun continues. Think about your daily walks with her. Do you take the same routes every day? do you let her off the leash and put the leash back on in the same places every day? most of us do, even without realising it. You can combat this by calling her back to you at random intervals throughout the walk and putting the leash back on, if only for a minute or two. Right now (and this is just a guess...), I can imagine that you only time her leash gets put on is when the walk ends, and after she has defied your recall commands. In both of those situations, the leash is associated with negativity. Get rid of that negativity! when you are recalling at random intervals, PRAISE and reward. If she is not food motivated, use something that DOES motivate her. As a Lab/Pointer mix, I bet she loves to chase? have you tried a Chuck-It ball launcher? if she knew that she would get a throw of the ball from the Chuck-It as a reward for coming when called (and consequently being put back on the leash), I bet she shouldn't ignore your commands very often.

Anyway, long story short, you have normal young dog and the e collar is not necessary. ;)
 
#11 ·
My dogs also eat deer and other wild animal poo and when I tell them to Leave It (offleash), they pick up as much as they can and make a run for it, LOL! Trickster's reply is really encouraging! :happy: I like the examples of how to get rid of the negativity of being put on a leash.
 
#12 ·
I agree with the other posts recommending how to train and to continue with it. Trickster gave you another (& IMO correct) way to view your dog's reluctance to obey at the end of a session.

Before you do decide to get an e-collar, I recommend you first read and follow the training procedures in Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash." E-collars (IMO) do not make training easier or better; they certainly won't make the trainer even one iota wiser or better. As Dani said, they're a tool. And before buying one, I also recommend you get and read a book on e-collar training; Dani may have some suggestions. I used the book by the Dobbs, "Tri-tronics (something or other)"

I've had scores of graduate course hours in learning theory, taught it in universities for decades, and frankly I was scared and apprehensive about using one because I knew how easy it would be to cause training damage that could be difficult or impossible to completely repair if used incorrectly. Punishment or aversive stimulation are extremely difficult things to use effectively in training; that's why most training protocols use positive reinforcement.

But we had reached a point that a 50 ft (15 m) long line/check cord wasn't sufficient (skunks, moving trucks, etc.).

Puff wears a Dogtra 200 NCP e-collar for our every morning 40-60 minute walks in a nature preserve. This collar has a non-shock setting (the Pager, a vibration) that we use 99.999% of the time. The shock levels [either Nick or Continuous (5 sec. max)] can be infinitely varied and set at any level from "0" through "100". The level mine stays is around "20" -- this is a level that I barely feel as a brief tingle in my fingertips but one which Puff responds to. I rarely use the "N" and don't remember when I've ever used the C.

I DO like my Dogtra 200 NCP Gold -- so much so that I own two, just in case (something should happen to one). I've just replaced the batteries (about $30) in my older one (about 4+ years old). If and when you do get one, the Tri-Tronics and Dogtras are considered by many as the best. When last I looked, the TriTronics had about 5 discrete steps of stim level. I chose the Dogtra because of its Pager (non-shock) mode and its infinite steps of stim level.
 
#13 ·
thanks for all your advice. its been informative and actually motivational. just to respond to tricksters post, yes, she is a well trained puppy with good recall skills for a 9 month old and im proud of her. and yes, all dogs are curious and pick things up from the ground and sometimes even chew and eat them. in sadies case (and this is why it is distressing to me and i was considering an e-collar in the first place), she eats ALOT of wood. and once she is really digging in on big stick or branch, she becomes very elusive. she ignores "leave it" and "come" even though she knows exactly what i am asking of her when i give the command, and she runs just far enough away that she can lay down and really eat away for a bit. at this piont, i cant run after her (that would ruin alot of the obedience work we've done to this point) and i cant even walk towards her because she will run just far enough away again to lay back down and dig in again. and i may not be describing this ell enough, but she eats alot of wood and it worries me. as a result, i was considering the ecollar, for just those times when she goes into that mode and gets into something that may harm her. that was/is my major concern and i read somewhere that ecollars can be responsably used in situations where the dog understands the command but chooses to ignore it. so i figured i'd ask you folks and solicit some advice. i wasnt thinking about buying one because im lazy (thanks dani), or i think its an easy way to train or i didnt understand that positive reinforcement is the better method. it just gets stressful when she is off leash and she realizes that she is doing something that she is not suppose to do and i cant stop her. and, by god, she is fast as lightning.
 
#14 ·
I understand your pain and fear. Had a dog once with such a high prey drive. Crossed a busy highway chasing a pheasant. We'd done all the obedience. Advanced classes. 'SOLID' recall. That's why she was off-leash. We were in a pasture on a farm. Highway was over 1/3 mile away. At some point, though, they learn they don't HAVE to. Each dog is different too. Some are highly motivated by food, a ball, willingness to please, etc... but one factor usually out-weighs the others more. In our case it was the pheasant, or any bird. The prey drive was WAY up there. How do you stop that at such a distance? She's a hunting dog, who was bringing us meadowlarks at 10 weeks old. While I agree with many posters on trying many methods, it sounds like you have. We do that too, but because we DO expect our dogs to be obedient at long distances, we use the e-collar. It gives you another level of control, in a very effective and humane manner. I may differ a bit in that I believe an e-collar can be a valuable tool. It also depends on the dog, but also depends on the person who will be using it on whether it should ever be strapped on. Someone who's a hot-head, or who loses patience, shouldn't use it. As others have said, you MUST teach the dog the commands before doing so. You MUST also determine the correct stimulation level for your dog. You MUST also collar condition (done on leash usually in your yard, for example) before using it just anywhere (the Tri-tronics book Bob suggested is good, and there are others). Read through the book and understand the concepts, THEN go back and begin applying them. When introduced and used properly, most dogs don't view the e-collar as 'negative', they can get excited about getting it put on. It means we go for long walks off leash, or in our case, we go retrieving or training for hunting & tests/trials. I'm not trying to convince you to use it, and you're right, it doesn't take the place of hard work and teaching without it. But, it can be VERY valuable as a reinforcement tool. You just have to learn how to use it wisely.
 
#15 ·
um....pross1942 I didn't call you lazy and I think it's unfair to extrapolate a comment from a different ecollar thread about a completely different situation. I have two different boys. Rider always could be trusted off leash and had a solid recall by 9 months. I can call him off of a squirrel chase, cat chase or when he goes to greet another dog. He never really picked up a bunch of stuff to chew that was harmful either. So, ecollar work with him is limited. Strictly field work...casting, all of that. Rookie, who is 14 months old, is another story. He's a knuckle head. Under most situations he's got a great recall, can mostly be trusted off leash...but DOES ignore me at times when there are other dogs and things to chew on. So I keep him in check because I know this. So his training is different than Rider's. I work him on the check chord, I am building those foundations and I do use the ecollar but again, for field work....I want to build the recall off of the ecollar.
 
#16 ·
this is the comment is was referring to. scroll up and it appears in the second response in this thread: "But to use it for recall when she doesn't have a good understanding of it or to curb eating sticks...well, the use seems pretty lazy to me."

its not a big deal, and again, i appreciate your advice. you are all more experienced than i am. just seemed like a harsh comment for someone who simply asking for advice before proceeding.
 
#17 ·
I don't think that Dani meant to personally put you down or to be harsh. You're too new here to have formed a good isea of the normal style of the various people posting. Dani's response style is usually more direct, some might say blunt, than that of many others but she is always using her own considerable experience to try to help dog owners.

It occurred to me this morning in our (Puff & my) usual early walk in the nature preserve that I've not used an e-collar in the recommended ways for some years.

Contrary to the view of most of the people who are opposed to using e-collars, acceptable, mainstream e-collar use by professionals is not punishing. If the training I read about in my "TriTronics Retriever Training" by the Dobbs is mainstream, then one of the early steps (after proper collar conditioning) in training is to find the lowest possible level of stimulation which the dog will notice. This is not a painful level; it is a presence the dog would prefer to be without. In teaching "heel", for instance, that level of stim is given until the dog gets in the proper position then it stops; when the dog moves out of that position, it begins again. It's very much like using a prong collar when walking.

But I prefer to use a food and praise positive reinforcement model for training. We'd used a 50 ft/15 m. long line/check cord for Puff's first couple years in our early morning 40-60 minute offleash walks in the nature preserve.

I bought our Dogtra 200 NCP "Gold" e-collar when, in the space of a few weeks, several things happened that I couldn't prevent. Puff suddenly saw an adult resident (developmentally disabled) from the nearby Kansas Neurological Institute walking with an aide. She ran toward them, barking, the LL too far out of my reach, and that scared the resident -- he tried climbing up his attendant almost like a tree, trying to escape, before I captured Puff. Another was we had a too close encounter with a skunk and another was with a moving park department truck. I ordered the Dogtra.

As I've many times said, 99.999% of the time, I use only the vibrating "Pager" (non-shock) signal when Puff doesn't respond quickly enough to my call. At the few times the "Pager" call isn't sufficient, I use the "Nick" (shock) stimulus which is set at a level so low that, when I touch the electrodes and trigger it, I can just barely feel a tingle in my finger tips. So I use this brief "Nick" as a mild aversive, to get her attention when she ignores my calling her, and also ignores the "Page."

This is not standard e-collar training but I'm glad I read the TriTronics book, glad that I followed their steps for collar conditioning, and glad that I tried some of the beginning steps in training although I did decide to use my own variation on using it.
 
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