Attitude change
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Attitude change

  1. #1
    matiekorgan's Avatar
    matiekorgan is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kiama, Australia
    Posts
    182

    QuestionAttitude change

    Hi Guys,

    I have noticed a bit of an "attitude change" in Harper over the last few days. He's not following commands that a few weeks ago he would have been eager to do. Like when he's let out of his crate he flops in the doorway and won't "come" on command (only for cheese!).

    I've got a few ideas why this might be, I just need a bit of guidance here:

    - He's bored with the training tools (ie, he's sick of liver treats and so won't work hard for them any more). In this case I'd change up my training treats a few times a day to keep him guessing.

    - He's starting to grow physically larger and so therefore is starting to assert himself ????

    - He just really doesn't want to do what I've asked him to do any more.

    Any advice would really be appreciated. I'm just continuing with training, maybe even taking a few back steps - like taking him to potty on lead again, taking time to do lots and lots of basic commands one on one, and just leaving out the things that are still a bit dicey, just for now (like a laying down stay).

    Thanks!
    Katie & Harper
    Soccorullus Corey Boy, our "Harper" 31.08.09


  2. Remove Advertisements
    JustLabradors.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    MicksMom is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    8,330

    Default

    Let me guess, Harper is somewhere between maybe 4 and 6 months old, right? Seems like pups "forget" what they've learned at about that age- just when you think you've made progress! LOL Just stick to your rules, etc, and you'll get past it.

  4. #3
    Belles mom is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    4,543

    Default

    Ya, all of the above. Pups will test you periodically as they grow ( and even once grown, they may just decide to see what ahppens if they choose to do otherwise). Stick to it and be firm. If your pup knows what is being asked of him, it is very important that you enforce the command. Good luck!!


    Karen and the gang
    BBI Kodi's Journey To Anotch (Journey)
    BBI Kodi's Blackpowder Striker (Flint)

  5. Remove Advertisements
    JustLabradors.com
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Bob Pr. is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lawrence (ex-Topeka), KS
    Posts
    8,472

    Default

    I went through that with Puff during her first year. Something that she seemed to have learned very well suddenly she'd forgotten.

    I just went back to square one and used NILIF training to retrain what she'd lost. She relearned fairly quickly. We went through about 5-6 of these periods.

    I decided it was because of all the internal chemical changes taking place inside her as she was developing. "State dependent learning" is well known; that's when training has taken place under the effect of chemical X, then whenever X is removed and Y substituted, past learning suffers.

    Some people call this "teenage rebelliousness" in their Labs but I think that's incorrect and doesn't easily lead to a proper response.

    Teenage rebellion in humans does exist but it's purpose is to achieve a separation between the parents and offspring so the offspring lead independent lives. Think of what would happen if parents didn't want their kids to ever leave and the kids were of the same mind?

    I think the reasons for this is because of all the developmental changes our pups are going through.

    Puff [YF, AKC field line (from competing HT/FT breeder) 62 lbs, dob: 8-'01]

    Bess [BF, AKC bench line (from competing show breeder) 55 lbs., 1967-1981] "Poor Bess, the Wonder Dog":
    http://forum.justlabradors.com/showt...?p=748#post748

  7. #5
    matiekorgan's Avatar
    matiekorgan is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kiama, Australia
    Posts
    182

    Default

    Thanks, guys. I'll be tough!
    Bob, love what you said about teenagers - I can't imagine still being with my parents!

    It's raining today, so Harper is a bit sooky, seems he's less flighty! SO many external conditioners!! LOL.
    Katie & Harper
    Soccorullus Corey Boy, our "Harper" 31.08.09


  8. #6
    Bob Pr. is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lawrence (ex-Topeka), KS
    Posts
    8,472

    Default

    Here's a longer version:

    Below is a copy of a post I've often made re: "Terrible Twos" & "Teenage Rebellion"
    in Lab development:
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    My Puff [YF, AKC field line (competitive breeder), 63lbs., DOB: 8-'01]
    had a number of episodes during her development from 5 - 13 months which
    some would call "teenage rebellion or (mis)behavior" or "testing authority" or
    "terrible twos".

    I VERY strongly disagree with this "teenage" view because I think it
    misunderstands both human teen behavior AND dog behavior.

    Re: dog behavior -- my Puff had most basic commands quite well learned
    (sit, stay, come, down, etc.) when she was 5 mos. old. At that time we
    walked (as we do now) for about 60-70 minutes in a nature preserve with
    her off leash (she wore a check cord/long line then).

    I found that for a couple days every few months until about 13 months
    Puff acted as if she forgot all her previously learned commands -- she
    didn't obey and acted very capriciously.

    When that happened, I retrained her at mealtimes using a NILIF (Nothing
    in Life is Free)
    protocol -- giving a command and, when it was obeyed,
    feeding her a few more kibbles from my hand. A few days of NILIF
    feeding/training and she'd relearn the forgotten commands and was fine
    until her next eclipse, a month or so later.

    My strong belief is that in 99.99% of the cases it is NOT a testing of
    who has the authority but rather this is during a time of rapid
    physiological and developmental change with some hormones coming
    on-line and others going off-line.

    I think that these developmental and hormone changes interfere with
    retention of learning. There is such a thing as "state dependent learning"
    -- learning under the influence of certain drugs will be less whenever
    those drugs are removed, or others added, etc.

    I think this is usually what is happening with our dogs when they lose
    learning during their first 13 months of development -- because of the
    hormonal changes they're going through.

    Calling it "teenage years" and as if they're challenging authority is
    wrong on several counts.

    For one thing, the time this occurs is usually between 5-13 months of
    age which, for most dogs, is before their age of puberty or reproductive
    capacity.

    For another, equating this with human "teenage challenges of authority"
    shows a lack of understanding of the functional purpose of this human
    teen age behavior.

    The major purpose in human societies of "teenage challenges to authority"
    is to produce a separation between fledgling adult and parents so the
    teen can begin building a life independent of parents.

    Think of what problems would exist if a teen was saying, "Gee, what
    wonderful parents -- I don't want to ever leave them"
    and if the parents
    were also saying, "what a wonderful child -- I don't want him/her to
    ever leave us."


    What would THAT result in?

    Instead, the needed sparks are supplied when the teens are thinking the
    usual: "they are SO stupid, I can't wait to leave here" while the parents
    are thinking "let me count the days until ...."]

    The functional purpose of human "teenage rebellion" is to provide a
    reason for separation between parent and child for ALL parties. That is
    certainly NOT the case with owner and dog.

    I think viewing this behavior in dogs as repeating blips in memory
    retention due to rapid development and internal chemical changes is far
    more accurate and leads to far more useful actions -- prompt retraining.


    Last edited by Bob Pr.; 12-17-2009 at 07:01 PM.
    Puff [YF, AKC field line (from competing HT/FT breeder) 62 lbs, dob: 8-'01]

    Bess [BF, AKC bench line (from competing show breeder) 55 lbs., 1967-1981] "Poor Bess, the Wonder Dog":
    http://forum.justlabradors.com/showt...?p=748#post748

  9. #7
    HersheyK's Dad's Avatar
    HersheyK's Dad is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Minnetonka, MN
    Posts
    10,307

    Default

    What's with this teenage year stuff? It can happen any time. Have you forgot my story about almost 3 year old HK deciding 'Come' was a foreign word. I had to go back to treating her.

    Good news that within a week she is back to normal, or at least what I call normal.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

  10. #8
    matiekorgan's Avatar
    matiekorgan is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kiama, Australia
    Posts
    182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HersheyK's Dad View Post
    .

    Good news that within a week she is back to normal, or at least what I call normal.
    LOL, Ed, that's all I'm after, our version of normal!

    Bob, as usual, very insightful. I do like what you said about a couple days every month, because today Harper seems to be on track again - he must have been reading my posts!

    My main thing is him bounding up the stairs - his food bowl is upstairs and he goes and looks at the spot where it normally is, as if he's expecting it to be magically there. Not sure why this is, seeings as we never just leave it on the floor for him to graze, and he ALWAYS has to work for his dinner. He used to sit at the bottom of the stairs and wait for the "ok, go" command (usually when I was already half way up) ... Is he just anticipating what's going to happen? Because we don't always go straight upstairs, either, sometimes he goes for a walk, sometimes he sits on his mat and gets some handling, sometimes we do some training in downstairs areas.

    I'm going back to on leash whenever he's out of his crate, just to stop that behaviour.
    Katie & Harper
    Soccorullus Corey Boy, our "Harper" 31.08.09


  11. #9
    sarah's Avatar
    sarah is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sydney AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    8,376

    Default

    My latest with Milly is wee's. She sure is getting an attitude at the moment!

    I let her out to do wee's and as she trots off I will say "quick wee's Milly" and she will stop and turn and look back at me with this utter look of disdain as if to say "uhh... yeah... duh! You don't have to keep saying it, I get it already!"

    OMG!

    and if she "forgets" where her bed is (which she is usually supposed to be on when visitors are over or if we are not interacting with her, I say "Milly.... you are supposed to be on your mat!" and she will TURN and NOT LOOK AT ME as if she is saying "omg I do not want to hear this. If I don't make eye contact with her maybe she'll go away"

    It's driving me bonkers!!!!
    Sarah & Milly - Sydney Australia






  12. #10
    matiekorgan's Avatar
    matiekorgan is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kiama, Australia
    Posts
    182

    Default

    LOL, Oh Sarah, she sounds like she's giving you a hard time. Maybe she forgot Santa is on his way?

    P.S It's POURING here, hope it clears up by the weekend, but the weather man isn't giving me much hope.
    Katie & Harper
    Soccorullus Corey Boy, our "Harper" 31.08.09


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Food Change
    By Boston in forum Lab Health and Nutrition
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-13-2009, 09:36 AM
  2. Change!
    By joflake in forum Lab Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-09-2009, 09:09 PM
  3. I should change my name to MnMnMsMom :)
    By MnMsMom9902 in forum Lab Chat
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-20-2009, 01:14 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25