Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience
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Thread: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

  1. #1
    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRequest counsel with the great minds of JL obedience



    OK, would anyone like to help me think through what went wrong today and how I could have (possibly) saved it?

    Here are the two things that really went south for us:

    1) Stand for exam. I have no idea why, but I became a complete drooling idiot for about fifteen seconds. : This judge made me feel really pressured for some reason. So we were setting up for the SFE, and Angus stood before I told him to. Now. DUH! I know the answer to this is just to go with it. And I was doing that. I told him to stay and was about to leave when I realized I had never actually given the command to "stand." :-[ Then I got completely flustered, asked the judge if I should leave then ( : ), he said to do it over because Angus hadn't been ready, so we did it over and he did it perfect. But I think he said I lost five points on that. So, question one is: Should I have gone ahead and left him without giving the command to stand? Or would that have been an NQ?

    2) Recall. Angus came barrelling towards me full speed. Actually, a little better than full speed. Onlookers (ring stewards) said I should have seen a fly-by coming, but it looked pretty much like his Recall always looks. At the last possible second he veered around to my right. I thought (hoped) he would just go ahead and finish, but then he went shopping behind me. : When I saw out of the corner of my left eye that he was going to start heading in that direction, I said, "ANGUS HEEL," because it's the only thing I could think of at the moment. :-[ Question two: Should I have said "ANGUS COME" for a second Recall command? Or maybe "FRONT?" The stewards said they would have said "Heel" when they saw he was going to buzz the ring. I was frozen in place, afraid to move, until I saw that we were honestly done, then I said "ANGUS COME" and he popped into finish position. He stayed there briefly until the judge came over, then popped back out again and tried to run out of the ring. Thank goodness for gate stewards. Also consider that Angus doesn't know a verbal for "Finish" (but maybe he should?).

    TIA for any advice on how I might have salvaged this shipwreck. :P


    Connie and "The Boys":
    Angus, Yellow Lab, CGC, RE, CD
    Simon, d.b.a. Flat Coated Retriever, CGC, RE, CD

    Gone ahead, but forever in my heart:
    Crash, Pit Bull x Rottweiler x Golden Retriever

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  3. #2
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    DefaultRe: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

    Not one of the great minds of JL obedience, that's for sure, we've just recently finished Henery's CDs... but...

    1. I probably would have given the command to stand, even though he was already standing (but not after you said stay, if you had already said stay)

    Another thing I thought of when reading your account of stand for exam was, after you give him the command to stand, readjust yourself if necessary to make sure he's in perfect heel position before giving your stay command, then pause after your stay command before walking away. Some judges will dock you here for being out of position if he's not in heel position before you leave him, so give them the opportunity to see that he is in perfect heel position before you leave him (by pausing before you walk away).

    2. I would have been just as flustered, but probably would have given Henry the finish command again. You might want to pair a verbal with your hand signal? ??? Our right finish is "around" and our left finish is "swing".

    In any case, I think you guys did great this weekend!!! Angus totally rocked yesterday, what a debut! You should be very proud, and a wonderful score too!! That's higher than Henery and I have ever gotten (we hang out in the 180s, and that's okay with me!)! So kudos!! I know how hard you've been working with Angus all these years.

    And today, well... sometimes you have an off day. :-\ It happens.

  4. #3
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    DefaultRe: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

    I like to think that I would have done what Felicia suggested.

    Actually, I had an issue on the stand-stay a lot (to the point I had a UKC judge yell at me). I consider the "stay" inherent in what I am telling her to do...so if it is a down...well, I don't need to tell her to down, stay, because down means down until I tell you otherwise. So...for the stand, I would tell her to stand, set her up, and go to leave. Judges would be like WHOA NELLY, YOU DIDN"T SAY STAY. Uh, yeah, I know. The UKC judge made me re-do and say something so that "she knew when I was starting." Right, okay. So I said, stand, set her up, and said stand again. Which irritated the crap out of her. So I know I would have repeated the stand command and been done with it instead of re-setting up.

    The recall? Probably would have looked at Gabs like "oh shit, this isn't going to end well." For a while we were having issues with her not fronting, so I smushed "Gabby, Here-front" all together into one command. Gabs also knows verbal/hand signals for finishes- I would think a verbal would be useful in a noisy trial environment.

    I do think that if you give a second recall command, it is a NQ though.

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  6. #4
    lcspt is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

    In the SFE the dog does not have to be sitting before he stands. The actual judging takes palce after you tell him to stay (that is why you make sure you are in heel position and return to heel). I would have gone on ahead with the SFE with only a stay command ........... but I have done that a number of times with Kona with him just standing beside me and I have told him to stay while I went for something or did something else. (that will prepare him for the moving stand in utiltiy) It is very hard to think on your feet and the more you compete the better you will get at it. Others that you train with, will give you ideas of what to do in different senarios.

    With the recall and the zoomies. I have used "sit" or "down" to stop the madness so I could get a leash on the dog. Kona was very bad about keep away when he was younger. I did teach verbal and signals for finishes so I could use either. One thing I have taught Kona is to come to heel from anywhere in the ring and he charges into position and from there I can keep going to get him working again. I am encouraging my students to practice "find heel" with their dogs.

    "In moments of joy all of us wished we possessed a tail we could wag." W. H. Auden

    Linda, Kona and Bo

  7. #5
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    DefaultRe: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

    Quote Originally Posted by AngusFangus
    OK, would anyone like to help me think through what went wrong today and how I could have (possibly) saved it?

    Here are the two things that really went south for us:

    1) Stand for exam. So, question one is: Should I have gone ahead and left him without giving the command to stand? Or would that have been an NQ?
    In this case you should have just left him if you thought he knew he was to stand. Remember the principle part of the exercise...that the dog stand/stays where left. There is no rule about what command to use. Judging doesn't start until you say "stay" (or give a signal to stay) and walk away. If you had already said "stay" then said "stand", it would have been an NQ essentially for giving a 2nd command after the stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngusFangus

    2) Recall. Question two: Should I have said "ANGUS COME" for a second Recall command? Or maybe "FRONT?" The stewards said they would have said "Heel" when they saw he was going to buzz the ring.
    The stewards would have been wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by henrysmom

    2. I would have been just as flustered, but probably would have given Henry the finish command again. You might want to pair a verbal with your hand signal? ???
    Nope...that's still a double command, one verbal/one signal even if they are given at the same time. The only place that is allowed is in some of the Utility exercises (it's required in gloves, allowed for moving stand and directed jumping) so don't get in the habit of doing that.

    Again, you have to look at the principle part of the exercise...dog stays where left and comes when called. If you give a 2nd command to stay or to come it is an automatic NQ ("Angus front" then "Angus heel" before he fronts would be considered a 2nd recall command). A 2nd command to front or finish is major points (3-5) but since he never fronted, you couldn't say anything at that point. If he would have just gone to heel, you would have been fine. The judge either would have finished the exercise there (taking 6 pts for no front and no finish) or he would have said "finish" and you could take that opportunity to get Angus to adjust his sit or even had him finish again. If a judge gives you that option, take it. You would only lose 3 pts for the no front instead of 6 for no front/no finish.

    Now having said that, if this becomes a habit in the ring, I'd definitely take an NQ now and then to set Angus straight by giving the 2nd command to front and I definitely wouldn't be saying it very nicely. The problem is you have to know that he isn't going straight to heel and thereby it would have been a Q without your extra command. Also, I'd never practice front and finish together. Have Angus front then break it off by telling him to down or do some heeling or do another recall in the same direction from where he is sitting...something, anything else then when you want to practice finishes, just step in front of Angus and ask him to finish. This should help with the drive bys. Front means front and he should never know what will come next after front.

    My advice...read and study the principle parts of every exercise. Commit them to memory. These are the only things you will NQ on. It's important to know them so you know when you can safely give a 2nd command if needed. Keep a copy of the regs in your training bag and review them before and after showing.

    I know some dogs that cannot show 2 or more days in a row because they get ring wise. The first day they are great but they know what to expect the 2nd day so, for example, they don't do their go outs all the way or they won't stay for the stand for exam or whatever. For those dogs, the people know they can only enter one day. Obedience is a journey. You are learning about your dog...what he needs to be successful in the ring. Once you learn that, then you will start a new dog and the journey begins again because his needs are different from the first dog. ;D

  8. #6
    Join Date
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    DefaultRe: Request counsel with the great minds of JL obedience

    Oh! Ooops! I meant, to pair the verbal with the hand signal until Angus learns the verbal, not to use both at the same time. Sorry, my bad, I wasn't clear. :-[
    Also consider that Angus doesn't know a verbal for "Finish" (but maybe he should?).


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