An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long
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Thread: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

  1. #1
    imported_Belles mom is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultAn awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    X-posted in hunting retrieving section

    I had the most awful experience this weekend. A friend took me to a trainer she knew that is fairly active in field trials. I thought..."Great I have never trained with any one that did that kind of stuff, I hope I pick up some good pointers and maybe she can help me through some "bugging" issues with Hoss.

    We started with me showing what we have accomplished with force to pile with Hoss. I would be (and did) the first to admit that there may be gaps in the various step, but that is why I was there. Where are the gaps and how do I fix them. It started off that she did not like ANY of the words I use with Hoss.

    (Now I realize that her version is commonly accepted and used terminology, and that there are reasons for it). I should not use "By ME" as a command to get the dog into heel position, ONLY "heel" (I use By Me as a stationary command and heel as a moving command). Did not like that I sent him on "Fetch It" I should ONLY use his name or "Back" (I use "Back" as a back-up command). I send on a blind on "AWAY" (yes cumbersome, and I want to change it), I MUST use "DEAD BIRD" to 'signal' to him that we are doing a blind. She didn't care that I use "DEAD BIRD" to indicate to the dog that there is a bird down in the area, and he should cast about until it is found (where I do not mark the spot well, or there is a know cripple that could be anywhere, used more in real hunting situations than hunt test scenarios). Didn't like that I held my hand to the side of his head, I should ONLY put my hand above his head.

    Well, o.k. I accepted what she was saying, and tried using her terms in the short distance (10 feet) pile work we were trying to do. Not unexpectedly, Hoss had no response to these words at first. In fact I have proofed AGAINST him doing anything when I say his name in a training situation (to prevent anticipation in the obedience ring). Since I was not supposed to use any hand motion in sending him, (I tend to move my arm forward in sending a dog...not right but I do it) Hoss would stay stock still since he had not heard the appropriate commands for fetching the bumper (I use "TAKE IT" in the force fetch type scenarios and when asking a dog to pick something up I am pointing at..."fetch it" for tossed items and marks).

    Well, trainer got frustrated with my ineptness apparently, and asked to see what she could do. Hoss had his ecollar on as we had been working through ecollar pressure in the force to pile fairly successfully up to this point. Things degraded rapidly from there. At first, Trainer was making progress in the "terms switchover' and Hoss was charging for the bumpers nicely. He refused a few times when he got confused (IMO) about the switch in terms and that there was another person handling him (another new experience for him). Then it got real bad. He started to not pick up a bumper and started to have a sloppy hold (he IS guilty of that I'll admit..and I did tell her that). Well she starts to crank up the juice on the collar (up to 5 the max on this collar). So, it got to the point where he was screaming and doing nothing. She kept saying "You have the option of complying Hoss...FETCH IT!" Then he stopped responding at all. Hoss was beyond being able to reasonably think and comply at this point! No voice on his part, just sitting there with his back to her. She wondered if the collar was working! At that point I called it quits and said NO MORE! (I should have said it sooner, but thought that MAYBE she knew what she was doing with my dog). She looked up at me and noticed that I was literally in tears. Said she felt bad about that (repeated that all afternoon). Hmmmfff. Said that she wished I was not there to see that and that she could have just taken the dog and given me back a forced fetched dog......

    I felt sooooo bad for betraying Hoss' trust in me...amongst all sort s of other things

    Alrighty, she'll never touch my dog again! It got worse.

    My obedience trainers dog was next (Marcia's 10 month old golden). Dog also was not force fetched to Trainer's expectations. Trainer started to do basic obedience with the ecollar with the 10 month old on come and sit. Marcia said dog knew come but not sit on ecollar. Trainer decided to teach sit via ecollar then and there. Trainer got heavy handed on both kicking the dog in the chest (side of foot) and the ecollar for not sitting and with the ecollar for not coming. (Dog on leash). Dog starts to put up a fight and does lots of struggling. Trainer says the dog would bite her at this point (and yup, I truly believe that would have..it's showing teeth..trying to growl...but was having difficulty breathing because she was heavy handed on the choke chain). Trainer gets more pissed off and ends up...get this....swinging the dog by the neck around her in a circle ON A CHOKE CHAIN! While saying to the dog "I can do this until you turn purple"! She'd let the dog down to see if it would comply. No surprise, it did not. It went on like this for a awhile longer and trainer told Marcia to put the dog up in her crate with some water and not to pay any attention to her for the rest of the day.

    Gag...it was a demonstration like this that made me not want to force fetch Belle (and I never did). I fully admit there are 'holes' in parts of my force fetching, but I also believe I do not need to break a dog in order to force fetch it.

    It was awful.......

    I was going to take a newbie friend with me...I was soo glad I did not!
    Karen and<br />UAG1 SHR UCDX GRCH Tracker Belle of Bedford RAE JH CDX TT WCX WC CGC (Belle)<br /><br />UCD SHR GRCH BIMBS BBI Belle&#39;s Kodiak Dreamweaver JH UD RAE TT WC CGC (Kodi)<br /><br />SHR UCH BBI Ponderosa&#39;s Big Blond Guy JH RE TT WC CGC (Hoss)

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  3. #2
    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Wow Karen! I bet you and Marcia where both fit to be tied. I always watch someone train before bringing my dog out. Many field trainers are old school hard correction trainers. I don't see the issue with the terms. So you didn't use her terms, so what? Many old school field trainers, those who train for field trials and not merely hunt tests only use e-collars and use them hard. That is why so many have been turned off of e-collars. Man, I'm sorry. One kick to my dog and I would have packed up and told them I was calling my lawyer. No one kicks my dog. Geez!
    Susan
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    imported_Belles mom is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    The terms thing started with me using "AWAY" to send a dog on blind (force to pile in this case). I'd agree it is a bit cumbersome and would like to find a 'crisper' word to use. My thoughts were if she'd show me what I needed to know if I used "BACK" (even though it means something totally different to Hoss), then when I do find the word I end up using, we'll be set.

    Poor Hoss he was so confused.

    Marcia regularly takes her dogs to chiropractors, so I can only imagine an appointment has been set for poor Tourch (her pup). She kicked Hoss once, but he's such a big giy I don't think it made too much of an impression. (and I will sometimes take my right foot when he is foraging and bop (not kick) him while we are heeling for him to get back into heel position). But Tourch is a field golden and is much slighter in build.

    At days end as we were talking the subject came up about deer and deer hunting. I told her I was a sharpshooter and am paid to kill. Her eyes got big and she went through another apology about making me cry about Hoss.....Hehehehehehehe
    Karen and<br />UAG1 SHR UCDX GRCH Tracker Belle of Bedford RAE JH CDX TT WCX WC CGC (Belle)<br /><br />UCD SHR GRCH BIMBS BBI Belle&#39;s Kodiak Dreamweaver JH UD RAE TT WC CGC (Kodi)<br /><br />SHR UCH BBI Ponderosa&#39;s Big Blond Guy JH RE TT WC CGC (Hoss)

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    patm's Avatar
    patm is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    I am almost speechless at this behavior! I know that sometimes I'll let a trainer go a little further than I am comfortable with because after all they are the "instructor" and must know more than I do - but you know your dog best, and it is just cruel to try to get a dog to do something that it hasn't been trained for (whether a word change, or e-collar change or whatever) and then PUNISH the dog for not doing something it has not been trained for. I am qutie sure the Emilu would never retrieve again if something like that happend to her. I would be so mad at that instructor!! And I would not allow physical punishment (and that's what she was doing - punishing the dog) to my dog unless it attacked a person or another dog (unprovoked). Sounds like she was a control freak also - I'm sure there are "better words" to use in the field, and I know that I sometimes trained with words that I would rather not have started with because I didn't know any better, but you can't expect a dog to go to a new person, and know what she is talking about using different words. Jeeshhh....... I'm so sorry this happend to you and your dog - hope it doesn't cause too much of a set-back with your dog.

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    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Quote Originally Posted by Belles mom

    At days end as we were talking the subject came up about deer and deer hunting. I told her I was a sharpshooter and am paid to kill. Her eyes got big and she went through another apology about making me cry about Hoss.....Hehehehehehehe

    Oh Karen, you are sooooooooooooooo bad, but hey, I would be tempted!!!
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
    FallRiver's Micah of Waltona GN RAE, Canadian CD, RN

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    Baloo317 is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Wow. That officially convinced me that I am totally steering clear of all of that. I want to compete in stuff with my dog so both of us can have some fun. I don't really understand why you would want to hurt your dogs or someone else's in the process. Isn't it supposed to be fun..?? ???

    Holy. If I can't train Baloo to do something in a positive, fun way, then I'm NOT training him to do it, and neither is anyone else. Simple. :-\

    Kate
    Baloo - 5 year old black lab
    Peanut - 7 year old minpin
    Monster - 3-ish year old frenchie/jack, rescue
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    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo317
    Wow. That officially convinced me that I am totally steering clear of all of that. I want to compete in stuff with my dog so both of us can have some fun. I don't really understand why you would want to hurt your dogs or someone else's in the process. Isn't it supposed to be fun..?? ???

    Holy. If I can't train Baloo to do something in a positive, fun way, then I'm NOT training him to do it, and neither is anyone else. Simple. :-\

    Please realize that not all trainers at that level are like that. I know a few who do all their field training via clicker method. But, just like obedience there are some old time trainers who do everything by correction.
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
    FallRiver's Micah of Waltona GN RAE, Canadian CD, RN

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    Tatyana is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Baloo, that was an example of someone with an extreme method. There are some bad trainers out there, you just have to be careful about who you choose to be your trainer.

  11. #9
    rottnlabs is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Oh Karen...I feel so bad for you. Your description brought back horrible memories for me.

    My very young 9 mth old Rottie had been attacked by another Rottie I had been fostering. He had become dog aggressive because of it out of fear more than anything. A local Dobie trainer told me he could fix the problem. He put his Dobie on a sit/stay and told me to heel Thor by him. Each time I did, Thor would get wide eyed and look toward the Dobie but he didn't make any aggressive moves. I could tell he was just scared. The trainer told me I needed to be firmer, grabbed the leash from me and told me to watch him. As he was heeling Thor no where near the other dog, Thor looked back at me for reassurance that it was ok to go with this man. I smiled at him so he then looked up at the man like he always did when heeling (he always watched my face). The man yelled "don't you look at me like that" and proceeded to lift Thor off his feet by his leash and choke chain. I freaked out but the man's wife grabbed my arm to hold me back said "It's ok. He knows what he's doing." : He swung Thor in the air all 4 feet off the ground until he passed out. The trainer dropped him on the ground in a heap. I pushed the wife away and was screaming and crying as I ran to Thor. I thought he was dead. As I was kneeling over him, he regained conciousness, leaped up growling and tried to attack the man. I grabbed Thor's lead before he connected and called him back to me as the man was growling back "oh you want to go again, do ya?" I ran out of that place so fast. I was crying and shaking all the way home. I was young and naive then. What I should have done was call the police and file an animal cruelty charge against the @$$hole. > I learned a valuable lesson that day. No one touches my dog but me. I don't care what credentials they may have. A testiment to Thor's temperament is that he never became aggressive to people even after that episode. I was eventually able to get him over his dog aggression too using postive reinforcement methods.

    Just wanted to add that the field trainer had no business using an Ecollar since she obviously doesn't know how to use it correctly. When a dog is confused you don't up the level. You help the dog. When the collar is too high, the dog is unable to think clearly so it does nothing but cause more issues or complete shut down...just like you saw.
    <br /><br />Lydia, Murray &amp; Essy in AZ<br /><br />Clear Creek&#39;s Mad About You CDX RE NJP OAP OFP ASCA CDX GSN RSN NGC TGO TNO OAC NJC HPN PS1 JHE<br /><br />Larkspur&#39;s Essence RE NAC TNN JHE

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    FDR
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    DefaultRe: An awful experience (field force fetch related) got long

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellow Boys Mom

    Many field trainers are old school hard correction trainers. I don't see the issue with the terms. So you didn't use her terms, so what? Many old school field trainers, those who train for field trials and not merely hunt tests only use e-collars and use them hard.
    This is not accurate.

    The most successful Field Trial trainers use the e-collar very sparingly. So, please don't paint Field Tral trainers with such a broad brush. Anyone can call themselves a Field Trial trainer however, the good ones win and place on a regular basis. The others are just wannabes.
    <br />Superior Intelligence * Real Desire * Working Conformation<br />Guns Up!

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