Answers and Suggestions, Please
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  1. #1
    Cappy_TX's Avatar
    Cappy_TX is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultAnswers and Suggestions, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by theoconbrio
    Jim, you might want to ask this in the Obedience section--some folks are more likely to see it there.
    "Whether your discipline is flyball, agility, obedience, show ring or other, I'd like to get some feedback from folks who are involved as serious trainers and/or handlers in bringing a young dog to near the peak of it's latent potential in that chosen discipline.

    I posted this thread earlier today:
    https://www.justlabradors.com/forum/i...6036#msg296036

    Zoesmom and others have raised some questions. Disregarding that Remi's field of endeavor is duck hunting, help answer some basic (and I think common) training and behavioral problems and what you do if you encounter any of these.

    I first of all assume that you generally agree with my belief that one should train one dawg at time and/or handle only one dawg at a time. But under those circumstances where you may allow two or more dawgs to train or perform together or in close proximity:

    1. Do you allow 1 or more other "students" to watch at a distance as observers and not partiicipants when another dawg is training or performing?

    2. What do you do if you see or believe the additional dawgs present are the source of distraction and obedience failures?

    3. If you have compliance issues with a known command where the dawg is wilfully and intentionally ignoring your command, how do you usually enforce compliance?

    4. What if the dawg refuses that further complaince effort?

    5. Do you utilize negative enforcement techniques to obtain compliance? If so, which methods and how?

    6. If you have a dawg that becomes vocal (whining, whimpering, barking) as it is awaiting it's turn, how do you correct that at the time?

    7. Assume that you personally have a long term successful training and handling record and have never had an a continuing obedience failure with a 2 year old dawg previously. Further assume that the dawg in question is bright, enthusiastic, social and completely obedient in its home environment, but goes out of control if trained or handled within sight of other people or animals. Is there a point, and if so when, would you wash-out that animal as not being worthy of the time, effort and frustration of attempting further development?

    Please add any other thoughts that may be appropriate to the discussion at hand."
    Remi and Rusty aren't my whole life. They're trying to fill the hole in my heart left by Cappy's passing.

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    3TailsWaggin's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    1. Do you allow 1 or more other "students" to watch at a distance as observers and not partiicipants when another dawg is training or performing?
    By students I'm assuming you mean another dog? Yes, I will work with one dog while the other is either tied up or in a down stay and watches us work.

    2. What do you do if you see or believe the additional dawgs present are the source of distraction and obedience failures?
    No I don't believe this and actually find the opposite to be true. Myself, and several others that I know with multiple dogs have had BETTER success in training for distractions with another dog or dogs present. I know Ruger has always nailed his down stays because from a young pup I'd put him in a down stay while I trained Magnum, sometimes forgetting about Ruger, 15 minutes would go by, and he'd still be waiting for release. Of course in the beginning this wasn't the case... I'd have to go over and put him back down into position but he learned quickly and stays put.

    3. If you have compliance issues with a known command where the dawg is wilfully and intentionally ignoring your command, how do you usually enforce compliance?
    Depends on the compliance issue. Normally I will go to the dog and make the dog comply, physically.

    4. What if the dawg refuses that further complaince effort?
    This has not happened with my dogs, but if it did I would look for a more severe form of "compliance" such as an e-collar or other method.

    5. Do you utilize negative enforcement techniques to obtain compliance? If so, which methods and how?
    Yes. I firmly believe a dog needs to know that line between correct and not correct behavior. I use verbal and physical methods to correct... the harshest I've done physically is with a collar/leash corrections, which can be severe if the dog requires it.

    6. If you have a dawg that becomes vocal (whining, whimpering, barking) as it is awaiting it's turn, how do you correct that at the time?
    I tell 'em to "shut up" or physically clamp the mouth shut and tell them to "shut up!"

    7. Assume that you personally have a long term successful training and handling record and have never had an a continuing obedience failure with a 2 year old dawg previously. Further assume that the dawg in question is bright, enthusiastic, social and completely obedient in its home environment, but goes out of control if trained or handled within sight of other people or animals. Is there a point, and if so when, would you wash-out that animal as not being worthy of the time, effort and frustration of attempting further development?
    I wouldn't stop training and I'd do more and more and MORE training around other people and dogs. That is the only way to desenitize this issue. Ruger was a total butt head around people for about two years, I'm talking.. he'd literally drag me into buildings at events to see people. Today, at almost five years, he still does this but to a less degree and once we are at an event he does settle in and begin working. Keep at it. Get that dog around these situations all the time (or as much as you can).

    Hope this helps some. I've got to run cause the blacksmith is here, but might post back later.

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    lcspt is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    I answered in lab chat.
    "In moments of joy all of us wished we possessed a tail we could wag." W. H. Auden

    Linda, Kona and Bo

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    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Cappy_TX

    1.* Do you allow 1 or more other "students" to watch at a distance as observers and not partiicipants when another dawg is training or performing?

    Yes, I do.* I will actually have multiple teams working at a time on obedience so the dogs learn how to concentrate with all kinds of things going on around them.* I just a note, I own an obedience training center, as does Linda/Raian

    2.* What do you do if you see or believe the additional dawgs present are the source of distraction and obedience failures?

    I don't see it as failure but as something we need to learn to work through. I never see it as failure but as something we need to work through.* It is not a perfect world out there, things happen and they need to gain confidence to keep working.

    3.* If you have compliance issues with a known command where the dawg is wilfully and intentionally ignoring your command, how do you usually enforce compliance?*

    Depends on the dog and the exercise.


    4. What if the dawg refuses that further complaince effort?

    Again, depends on the dog and the exercise.


    5.* Do you utilize negative enforcement techniques to obtain compliance?* If so, which methods and how?

    Again, depends on the dog and the exercise.* But, most trainers will tell you that there will usually come a time when some type of negative is needed once the exercise is learned and the dog makes a willful decision to not follow through.* Again, the correction will depend on the dog and the exercise.* Not one hard and fast rule. Even with clicker training the absense of the click is a type of negative.

    6.* If you have a dawg that becomes vocal (whining, whimpering, barking) as it is awaiting it's turn, how do you correct that at the time?

    Sometimes it will correcti itself as it learns it will have a turn.* Some use a squirt bottle of water, lemon juice, Bitter Apple along with whatever the command is to quiet. Also a place where clicker training can be useful in re-shaping the behavior.


    7.* Assume that you personally have a long term successful training and handling record and have never had an a continuing obedience failure with a 2 year old dawg previously.* Further assume that the dawg in question is bright, enthusiastic, social and completely obedient in its home environment, but goes out of control if trained or handled within sight of other people or animals.* Is there a point, and if so when, would you wash-out that animal as not being worthy of the time, effort and frustration of attempting further development?

    From the little you have said, it needs to be trained in other places so it learns that it must obey everywhere.* More different places, more different dogs and people.* One thing I tell my students is often when you add a new distraction you must take a step or two back to go forward three.* It is not a failure issue it is an issue with human nature where we feel we have failed if it does not work right away and we don't like to regress back--again we veiw it as failure.

    Linda with Kona, Linda with Ruger, Lydia with Murray all not only train our own dogs but are instructors as well.* Lots of different ideas around here and a lot of success.* We have all learned how to train through perceived failures to obtain the next level of training.* We are re-conditioning animals who learn by condition response.
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
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    3TailsWaggin's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Cappy, I just wanted to add that one thing we stress for Obedience training is to go to as many different locations and train as you can. I'm not talking a dozen. With Ruger I feel we'll probably need to train in about 100 different locations on this Utility stuff until it starts to all come together in the ring consistently. It's a never ending process, as you know, to train a dog. Keep the end goal in sight and strive your best to reach it.

    I started just six years ago with Magnum. I had never trained a dog for anything before although I had dogs all of my life. But to have a goal, to think toward an end and work to get there, it's a struggle, at times I felt I'd never EVER be able to train a dog to do exercise X Y or Z, and yet I keep plugging away and have honestly amazed myself by all the progress I've made and all the things I've learned on the journey.

    Also ALWAYS keep an open mind. There are many, many methods to train. You may have to resort to some type of training or training tool that you never thought you'd use, and you may get good results or not, and then you try something else.

    Also, when I really get stuck on a problem in training I often have to sit back and think and think and think about the situation and know my dog and find a creative solution.

    Keep training

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    rottnlabs is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Cappy_TX

    I first of all assume that you generally agree with my belief that one should train one dawg at time and/or handle only one dawg at a time. But under those circumstances where you may allow two or more dawgs to train or perform together or in close proximity:
    * Actually, I see no reason not to train multiple dogs at the same time

    1.* Do you allow 1 or more other "students" to watch at a distance as observers and not partiicipants when another dawg is training or performing?
    * Sure.* I also want them to work their dogs while we are working.* For example, when we are doing dumbbell retrieves we will all line up in circle facing inward.* We will toss all of the dumbbells to the center of the ring and send the dogs to get their own (these dogs are all friendly with each other.* I wouldn't do this with a possessive dog on the off chance a dog grabs the wrong dumbbell).* When I'm working on heeling with Murray, I ask my training buddies to play ball, play tug, play with squeeky toys near us.* It teaches the working dog to focus.* It also helps to have others giving their dog's commands to proof your dog for someone else giving commands near by.* The show this weekend had the Rally ring, the agility ring and the conformation rings all within about 50' of the obedience rings.* If these dogs were not used to working around numerous distractions, loud noises, loud speakers, people talking and laughing no dog would have qualified.

    2.* What do you do if you see or believe the additional dawgs present are the source of distraction and obedience failures?
    Remove or lower the distraction to an acceptable level.* The key to adding distractions is to set the dog up for success, not failure. I think this is where many people make mistakes. I don't add distractions to be able to correct the dog.* I add distractions to build the dog's confidence that he CAN do this. I want him to be right.* I up the distraction level when the dog is ready.* For example, at first I will have the dog do it's sit & down stays with no distractions.* Then I will have someone walk around in front of the dog but about 10' away.* Then I will have them walk back and forth in front of the dog much closer (5') away.* Then I will have them walk behind the dog and do the same thing.* Then have them weave between the dogs, then ave them step over the dogs, then have them walk by playing with a ball, then have them walk by dragging a toy.* Each distraction builds on the next.* If a dog is having trouble with one particular distraction level, I drop back one or two levels to a place where they can be successful and build up from there.*I do all of this at home then I take the show on the road and go to numerous local parks, parking lots, ball fields, etc and start back at step #1 each time.* It's really interesting that you can tell what dogs have had this type of distraction training when they are in the ring.* I've seen some pretty weird things happen in the ring (for example the ring gating fell down behind a line of dogs doing out of sight downs).* All of the dogs except 2 took off like they were shot out of a cannon.* The 2 that stayed, hunkered down with an expression that said "mom is testing me again."*

    3.* If you have compliance issues with a known command where the dawg is wilfully and intentionally ignoring your command, how do you usually enforce compliance?*
    * First I'd ask does the dog REALLY know the the command.* If the dog has been responding to "sit" 100 times correctly in the home and he suddenly decides he doesn't know sit, I will enforce the command then immediately follow up with praise.* If the dog has been responding to "sit" 100 times correctly at home but now he decides he doesn't know sit when we are in a different location (Petsmart for example), I will help him.* This is a new situation and he doesn't realize at this point that sit means the same no matter where we are.* This is why it is so important to train in many different locations when teaching obedience commands.* Once I have the dog responding promptly to sit 100 times in 20 or so different locations, then I will correct for no sits because the dog should now understand that sit means sit.

    4. What if the dawg refuses that further complaince effort?
    It would depend on the situation.* The dog may be frightened, intimidated, hurt, etc.* I'd first ask myself why is he not responding.* If I feel it is willfulness, I will up my enforcement level.* I have taken a dog to the ground before when necessary.* When I first got Murray he was playing with me when I was laying on the sofa.* He kept weaving and bobbing and lunging at me trying to bite me in play but the bites were hard and leaving marks.* I told him "No bite, leave it, etc" but he was so out of control that he wasn't listening so he weaved when he should have bobbed and I managed to grab his scruff, yank him completely off his feet and he landed on the ground on his back with me on top saying "No BITE!" thru my gritted teeth.* The horseplay stopped abruptly then because he realized I would enforce compliance.

    5.* Do you utilize negative enforcement techniques to obtain compliance?* If so, which methods and how?
    Sure when it is necessary.* I use only the level necessary to enforce KNOWN commands and the action may be different depending on the infraction and what tools I have at my disposal at the time.* When I say tools I mean leash, my voice, my hand, the ecollar, etc.* It's difficult to say in general terms what I would do for a given situation.* So much of training involves reading the situation, reading the dog, etc.

    6.* If you have a dawg that becomes vocal (whining, whimpering, barking) as it is awaiting it's turn, how do you correct that at the time?
    Remi sounds a lot like Murray.* Murray has a lot of drive when it comes to anything related to water.* He's obsessed to the point of having tunnel vision and complete deafness.* At first he was completely unmanageable around water.* Nothing and no one could be in the pool when he was aroung.* He would drag everything out of the pool including people.* He would grip so hard that he would cause them to bleed.* If I left him in the house while the kids swam, he would bark and cry and throw himself against the glass doors and windows.* It took almost a year to somewhat desensitize him to people being in the pool.* He's still not perfect by any means but now he and the kids can play together without anyone being injured.* I did several things.* At first, I would just walk him around the pool when no one else was around.* I'd tell him "no pool".* Once I could walk him without him trying to drag me in, I asked my daughter to set at the edge of the pool with her feet in the water.* Murray went nuts again.* I had to continue to walk him around saying "no pool" until he was calm.* Then my daughter got all the way in but just sat quietly.* Again, Murray went off.* Again, I walked him around until he calmed down.* Then I let her splash.* The process went on and on like this for 1 year.* Each time I'd gradually build the distraction just like I mentioned in question #2.* Today (3 years later), Murray has learned to wait until I release him to the pool.* He will get out of the pool when I tell him play time is over.* He will play with his own toys in the pool while the kids play with theirs. He still cannot be left in the house while someone is swimming.* He still gets anxious when the kids are splashing or jumping in.* He will still tear out the pool equipment if I don't remove it first.* This is just something in his hardwiring that may not ever be resolved but at least I've got him to a point where he can enjoy the pool with us within known parameters.

    7.* Assume that you personally have a long term successful training and handling record and have never had an a continuing obedience failure with a 2 year old dawg previously.* Further assume that the dawg in question is bright, enthusiastic, social and completely obedient in its home environment, but goes out of control if trained or handled within sight of other people or animals.* Is there a point, and if so when, would you wash-out that animal as not being worthy of the time, effort and frustration of attempting further development?
    Boy am I the wrong person to ask about this.* * I'm having those thoughts about Murray's agility career (he's 5 1/2) because he's so distracted that he can't concentrate enough to compete anymore.* I can pretty confidently say I would not consider washing out a 2 yr old though.* They are just so mentally imature at that point that I really don't think you've seen their true potential. Essy is 2 so I know what exactly you are going thru. I wouldn't consider competing with a dog before they are at least 2 because of this.* I would continue working Remi around lots distractions and new locations and put competing on the back shelf for a little while.* I would bet that in a year Remi is going to be a more confident, more mature, awesome working dog like her brother.* ;D



    <br /><br />Lydia, Murray &amp; Essy in AZ<br /><br />Clear Creek&#39;s Mad About You CDX RE NJP OAP OFP ASCA CDX GSN RSN NGC TGO TNO OAC NJC HPN PS1 JHE<br /><br />Larkspur&#39;s Essence RE NAC TNN JHE

  9. #7
    3TailsWaggin's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Okay, speaking of "what do you do if the dog doesn't comply".

    I just came in from our field. A loose stray dog was down on the dirt road at the end of the field. Magnum was racing the fence line and wouldn't stop. I did not know this dog and didn't want to chance a scuffle (Mags can put her head through the fence, it's hog wire.. big openings). I did not have a leash, nor did she have a collar on. All I had was my Chuck-it (I was playing with Ruger) and when I could not catch her, could not get her attention, could not stop her reactions to the other dog, I got close enough to her to give her a good, and I mean a good sting on her butt with the Chuck-it. Yes, I hit her with it and hit her good. Result, immediate compliance from her. She left the dog on the street alone and resumed play with me. A few times she got the idea to go try to bother the dog, but she thought about it and stayed with me.

    So yes, once in a blue moon I get a bit "violent", especially when I'm geniunely concerned with the safety/well being of my dog.

    Does she still love me. I think so

    I will stress I NEVER hit a dog with anger. This was a sting on her butt to get her attention off the dog (which I had exhausted all other means available to me at the time). I wasn't angry with her. Got her attention, and we resumed play.

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    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by raian

    So yes, once in a blue moon I get a bit "violent", especially when I'm geniunely concerned with the safety/well being of my dog.

    Does she still love me.* I think so

    I will stress I NEVER hit a dog with anger.* This was a sting on her butt to get her attention off the dog (which I had exhausted all other means available to me at the time).* I wasn't angry with her.* Got her attention, and we resumed play.
    Mean Mommy!!! ;D Yes, just like with children, when it comes to their saftey.............. Not in anger but you certainly got her attention!!!
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
    FallRiver's Micah of Waltona GN RAE, Canadian CD, RN

    www.labmed.org


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    3TailsWaggin's Avatar
    3TailsWaggin is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    That's a wonderful difference between dogs and children. Dogs forgive you and get back to the task/play at hand. Kids cry

    Remove or lower the distraction to an acceptable level. The key to adding distractions is to set the dog up for success, not failure. I think this is where many people make mistakes. I don't add distractions to be able to correct the dog. I add distractions to build the dog's confidence that he CAN do this. I want him to be right.
    Lydia I agree and disagree with this. There are times when you need to make the dog fail in order to correct the dog so you get consistancy in compliance. I make my beginning students do this all the time with the down-stay. I want that dog to fail so we can correct so the dog learns that there is NO option. When he is in a down stay he MUST stay there until his handler releases him. So many beginning students treat this exercise with kid gloves and are afraid the dog will make a mistake and get up. I tell them right off the bat... let the dog make the mistake so you can correct it and reinforce it

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    rottnlabs is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Answers and Suggestions, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by raian
    Lydia I agree and disagree with this. There are times when you need to make the dog fail in order to correct the dog so you get consistancy in compliance.* I make my beginning students do this all the time with the down-stay.* I want that dog to fail so we can correct so the dog learns that there is NO option.* When he is in a down stay he MUST stay there until his handler releases him.* So many beginning students treat this exercise with kid gloves and are afraid the dog will make a mistake and get up.* I tell them right off the bat... let the dog make the mistake so you can correct it and reinforce it
    If a dog fails on a distraction he absolutely will be corrected.* What I'm saying is I don't purposely set them up to fail.* I don't take a dog that has just learned a down stay and ask someone to run their dog back and forth in front of him playing with a toy.* That isn't fair to the dog.* That's like asking someone who has just learned to add basic math to do quantum physics then punishing them for getting the wrong answer.* Do you see the difference? Distraction training requires building up the distractions to build up the confidence.
    <br /><br />Lydia, Murray &amp; Essy in AZ<br /><br />Clear Creek&#39;s Mad About You CDX RE NJP OAP OFP ASCA CDX GSN RSN NGC TGO TNO OAC NJC HPN PS1 JHE<br /><br />Larkspur&#39;s Essence RE NAC TNN JHE

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