2x2 weaves, slow drive
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Thread: 2x2 weaves, slow drive

  1. #1
    3TailsWaggin's Avatar
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    Default2x2 weaves, slow drive

    Remington is understanding the 2x2 concept. We are on step 8, working with 4 poles and a jump before and after to help speed him up. But I am having a lot of trouble getting him to drive to and thru the poles. I know you are not to reward for slow drive, and I am running with him now to help with speed, but it's just not that speedy.

    On the flip side, when we do an entire course, he's very enthusiastic and has much more speed and a lot more drive at the poles.

    I've noticed in all other exercises as well, if I isolate equipment and work one thing (for instance, today we were working on contacts using the A-frame). Again, no drive, very little enthusiasm, even with the clicker method I am now using.

    Put it all together and he lights up and drives very well.

    How do you get that drive when working on smaller parts of the whole? I'm at a loss.

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    Fallriver's Avatar
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    Two things come to mind. First, I would not work him for more than a minute at a stretch, then take a small break. I would do ten trials, then take a break. The reasons are, dogs stop learning after then and you can't concentrate for much longer than that (as in every one of us, not just you)

    There is a difference between a clicker trainer and somebody who uses a clicker. True clicker trainers will train in very short bursts when teaching new skills. What we typically do is count out 10 cookies. If the dog is right, he gets the cookie and if he is wrong, we put the cookie in our pocket. After ten cookies, we tally what is left in the Wrong pocket. We do this because dogs need to be working at about 70% to 80% success rate to stay motivated and to learn. Once the dog is able to do about 20 repetitions at 80% or greater success rate, then we up the criteria. It is important that we pay attention to this and actually record it because if our dogs are not getting a high enough rate of reinforcement, our criteria are too high and they will lose motivation. If they are repeatedly over 80% success, they will be motivated, but you will strengthen intermediate behaviours that you want faded, so you don't want to stay at an intermediate level for too long.

    Speaking of criteria setting, you must be able to define exactly what you want before you pull your dog out. If you are working on speed, just work on speed. If you are working on entries or footwork, just work on that. You can not work on two different criteria at the same time. You get what you click, not necessarily what you want, so the really, really good clicker trainers know exactly what they want for any given trial so that they can immediately mark it as the dog is engaged in the wanted behaviour. Whatever your dog is doing at the instant you click is what you will get, so you must precisely define your criteria and work on your timing and mechanical skills so that you can capture miniscule motions. You must also be careful to keep your clicker hand absolutely still when you click as many people make the mistake of moving their hand when they click and because this is more salient, their dog will be marked for the wrong thing, will not work for the click, and timing goes out the window.

    Now the dog has to be an active partner in this. Most dogs who have been trained with luring have been rewarded for doing nothing. (that is why luring is evil to clicker trainers: dog sits doing nothing, so trainer lures it into doing something with a cookie. Thus, cookies appear when dog sits doing nothing so dog does a lot of sitting around waiting for you to direct him...preferably with cookies)! It takes time for them to offer behaviours and you can not be an effective clicker training if your dog does not offer you behaviour. Once he understands that you like movement, he will try all sorts of things in an effort to find out what you will click and what you won't.

    The last seminar I gave I had to fly and I didn't want to bring dogs so I shot some video (bad video) for people to see a clicker savvy dog. Basically, I sat in a chair and put a box in front of me. I wanted my dog to go around the box and I would do nothing but sit in my chair and click what I wanted. In any event, you can see that a clicker savvy dog has the motivation built in. She knows I have cookies for her and she likes cookies, so she tries stuff out to try to earn the cookies. You can see, there is no cheerleading or prompting, just creative placement of reinforcers, easily attainable criteria and decent timing. Step one, my criterion is simply moving away from me and we build on that. At no time is the dog bored or slow because the criteria are easily achievable and more importantly, she understands to offer behaviours...your dogs likely still need to get there and they will with time.

    Anyway, I taught her to go around the box in under ten minutes. Here is the first link:

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z...=ChiliBox1.flv

    and second

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z...=ChiliBox2.flv

    You can see in the second video that my criteria were too high at one point (they were go to the corner of the box) and Chili let me have it, she was MAD!!!! I had to reset my criteria for her because she is used to working at 70% to 80% rate of reinforcement and when it was gone, she knew I had dropped the ball. Anyway I hope the videos work. I wanted you to see the rate of reinforcement, how many cookies she is earning in the early stages. that is how you want 2 X 2 to go. If it is not going that fast and that well, it is not time to increase criteria. If you do, you will lose speed and I suspect this is what is happening.

    Here is a video that is really diabolical which shows you how important diversity in behaviours is for a clicker dog. This is 101 Things To Do With a Box. The game goes like this: Chili only gets clicked for a unique behaviour once. So if she touches the box, she will get clicked once for it then has to try something else. It is a great mind game for clicker dogs but ONLY for very experienced clicker dogs...younger dogs will easily give up. But I will share this one as well because it shows motivation again. I think she tunes in to this immediately but you can see that a clicker savvy dog will work for low rates of reinforcement and she works very hard on this. Once your dog is clicker savvy, the motivation and speed will be built in

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z...ent=101Box.flv
    Last edited by Fallriver; 10-22-2009 at 04:47 PM.
    Dana


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    brody's Avatar
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    brody literally trains 2 reps no more at anything ... he is a quick study and I can do 2 reps 3 or 4 or 10 times in one day much more effectively than doing 6 or 20 reps ...
    http://andrea-agilityaddict.blogspot.com/

    “I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.” H. Keller

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    Maybe I'm doing too many reps. I will dole out the 10 treats and stop at that

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    brody's Avatar
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    even occasionally do a jackpot - one quicker run gets 4 of the treats at once - meaning only 6 reps ...

    I really find if I overtrain brody he tunes out -he's still good cause he's brody .. but he gets a little slower each rep
    http://andrea-agilityaddict.blogspot.com/

    “I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.” H. Keller

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    My dog gets bored with drills of any kind and starts to fade.

    Ann & Miles
    MACH ARCHEX "Miles" (DOB 3/10/2006) UD RAE MXS MJS OF CW-OB3 CW-ARF CW-AR CW-ZR2 CL-1 (DOB 3/10/2006)
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    Fallriver's Avatar
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    A little note on jackpots. If you are using a clicker, jackpots don't have any added value for the dog. A clicker dog works for the clicker, not the jackpot so by the time you dole out the multiple treats, it has no benefit over one cookie. If you are going to jackpot, don't click first, just have a little fun word like 'jackpot', break it off and then let the cookies and the fun fly
    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
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    If your dog does not have the drive then you have moved through the steps too quickly. Less repititions and more enthusiasm and treats. I spent 5 minutes (timed it) with each dog on their weaves 4x a day. I then cut it back to 2x a day. My girls now pull to the weaves and have a silly grin when they go through. Both have sub 4 second weave (12 poles). Maddie has registered at just over 3.3 seconds and Panda at 3.5. They love them and find them rewarding in themselves. But this took time. I had to make the weave poles the most fun. I was excited and happy. I revved them up before having them start. Are you ready, are you ready.... I had to learn to have fun with my dogs. Silly playful fun. I really used to take agility way to seriously. Now I enjoy it with my dogs and we have been much more successful.

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    I don't think Linda uses a clicker .. I might be wrong ...
    http://andrea-agilityaddict.blogspot.com/

    “I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.” H. Keller

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    I am not using the clicker with the 2x2 weaves. I am using Susan Garrett's method.

    I also am not revving him up, because according to the method used by SG you don't do that, you let the dog offer you the performance, speed up by adding jumps and running with the dog. It's not working too effectively.

    I am going to rev him up at the beginning and see if that will get it going.

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