Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?
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Thread: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

  1. #1
    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultFallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    So i have been doing alot of thinking about vaccinations...actually about not giving them.

    Now, for Apollo and my cats, I was wondering...do you reccommend not giving vaccinations at all? or to only give them every three years? All of them have already been vaccinated for various things atleast once. If I don't vaccinate yearly, do I put my dog/cats at risk for contracting one of the diseases I am vaccinating against? Such as canine or feline distemper?

    For my ferrets, canine distemper is 100% fatal to them. I really would hate myself if my little ferrets got it and passed away, so I will continue to vaccinate them for distemper, but I was wondering...do you think if I did it every three years that would be better? I know you don't know anything about ferrets, but I see you are quite informed about vaccines.

    Also do you have some good articles, websites, resources, etc that I could read to give me a better idea about not vaccinating? Everyone (including the ferrets) will have to get their rabies. I am pretty sure its law where I live. For example, if my ferrets bite someone, they would have the right to seize and destroy my animal if they do not have 1. a current rabies vaccine record and 2. a specific type of rabies vaccine.

    Any advice and info would be helpful. I want to make sure I'm properly informed so that i can make the best decision for my little ones. No one has vaccinations coming up until September, so I have plenty of time to think about not vaccinating and getting the facts before then.

    Thanks for any help in advance!
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

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  3. #2
    Fallriver's Avatar
    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    If they are protected now, they will be protected for life. The vaccine manufacturers have never been able to prove the revaccination is necessary. Dr. Ron Schultz who is a leading immunologist has this to say about revaccination:

    A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual revaccinations. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal. Successful vaccination to most bacterial pathogens produces an immunologic memory that remains for years, allowing an animal to develop a protective anamnestic (secondary) response when exposed to virulent organisms. Only the immune response to toxins requires boosters (e.g. tetanus toxin booster, in humans, is recommended once every 7-10 years), and no toxin vaccines are currently used for dogs and cats. Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic (secondary) response as a result of interference by existing antibody (similar to maternal antibody interference). The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination or is required by law (i.e., certain states require annual revaccination for rabies).

    Check this link for the efficacy of vaccines: http://www.fallriverlabs.com/Conside...for%20Dogs.htm
    If you revaccinate, you will get all of the risk and none of the benefit, period.

    As for preventing disease, most disease occurs within 3 months of a vaccination and there is a ton of research that shows vaccinated people and animals are equally likely to get the very disease they are vaccinated for.

    Rabies is required by law, but they do NOT have the right to seize your animals and chop their heads off should they bite somebody.

    I have about twenty or thirty links on my site and you can direct to roughly a hundred sites and articles from there:

    http://www.fallriverlabs.com/Health%20Links.html Scroll down to the bottom to Vaccinations.

    Here is something else to consider:

    Vaccinations – how they work, when they work…

    Many people believe that a vaccination gives instant protection against certain
    diseases, as included in the vaccine. This is absolutely not the case - and it can be
    outright dangerous to administer vaccines under that assumption, as even many
    veterinarians unfortunately do on a routine basis….

    How vaccines are manufactured

    There are, in principle, two types of vaccines:

    1. killed vaccines
    2. modified live vaccines.

    Vaccines are manufactured by growing the virus that causes the disease on some
    tissue that will allow it to nourish and grow. Once the culture has reached a
    sufficient size for production, the manufacturing can start.

    For a killed vaccine, the virus is simply killed, often by adding poisonous chemicals
    to the culture. The culture is then “formulated” – which simply means diluted with
    solvents and having reagents added to it so it can stay preserved and can be divided
    into individual probes that can be sold, ready for injection through a needle.

    For a modified live vaccine, the culture is not killed, but crippled instead. This is
    accomplished by changing its living conditions, so it will temporarily lose its ability to
    multiply at its normal rate. This can be done either through a change to a substance
    for it to live from that is not optimal for it (tissue from a different species it normally
    would not attack), or it can be accomplished by adding chemicals that will cripple it,
    but not totally kill it. Sometimes both methods are used, as some preservation
    chemicals always are added later on to preserve the vaccine in the containers it gets
    sold in.

    What a vaccine is supposed to do

    A vaccine is supposed to challenge the body’s immune system – make it believe that
    it got infected with the real disease, but because the disease is either dead or
    crippled, the body’s immune system should have an easy job generating a response
    that ends up being “overkill” because the vaccine really wasn’t that dangerous at all.
    The entire range of processes and action that constitute such as response is very
    complex, but there are two important components that should be understood:

    - The body produces a serious of antibodies to encapsulate the virus and its
    poisonous discharges.
    - The body establishes a filing system that records the main characteristics of
    the disease and will enable it to get an earlier warning next time an invasion
    of this disease should occur.

    This is just about the same it would do when fighting aback an attack of the real
    disease.

    In case of a vaccine, however, the antibodies will be produced in great excess –
    because the body overestimated the need for them. Those antibodies can be
    measured (often called “titers”), and when they are present, you have confirmation
    that the dog’s immune system is prepared for an attack of this disease. Because of
    this preparedness and the early warning the immune system will get because the
    disease next time will be recognized almost momentarily, chances of a successful
    battle against the disease are so vastly increased that a new infection generally will
    be defeated before it ever gets to harm the body.

    The same thing happens if the body successfully fought the real disease. The body
    won’t be taken “off-guard” one more time by that disease, so, next time an infection
    arrives, it will be defeated fast and completely. The body is thus immune to the
    disease. This is called auto-immunization.

    So, what happens in either case is that preparedness gets established through a
    challenge to the immune system – by the immune system successfully defeating the
    challenge.

    Some important consequences...

    As you can understand from the way vaccines work, they do not give instant
    protection. The protection they cause the body to develop will take time to establish
    – typically about the same time as a successful fight against the real disease. In
    most cases, for our dogs, this means 2-3 weeks. So, in that meantime, the dog has
    no protection! It is actually fighting a fake disease, as if it was sick – and, seriously,
    sometimes the dog truly does get sick from a vaccination! Generally not quite as
    bad as from the real disease, but bad enough to notice on its behavior.

    Vaccines do differ from the real disease. For some, the different is so significant
    that the body does not establish an effective protection against the disease – the
    vaccine did not work… This is often the case for killed vaccines. The body quickly
    figures out that somebody “cried wolf” for no good reason, and all the mobilized
    defense gets dismissed, and no preparedness established. The vaccination is
    considered a false alarm – which it actually also truly was! When the disease
    arrives, the body will taken off guard… We got a false protection.

    Vaccines also differ from the real disease by the fact of the virus being contained in
    a liquid that gets injected into the body in a location that never would be a first
    entrance for a naturally contracted infection. This surprise for the immune system
    will normally result in exactly that over-reaction that is desired, but it can also
    sometimes go too far: this happens when the body directs the preparedness towards
    another attack from the same location in the body – and will thus not be timely
    alerted when the real disease arrives through the natural entrances….

    Finally, there is another important thing too take into account when administering a
    vaccine. The virus comes in a liquid that contains some poisonous preservation
    chemicals. On top of that, this “soup” also contains remains of the foreign tissue the
    virus was cultivated on – it is impossible to physically take the virus off that tissue,
    so the manufacturer simply takes the tissue with the virus – and dilutes it in the
    poisonous soup that now is called “vaccine”. There are two important effects of this:

    - The poisons will cause another challenge to the immune system. On top of
    fighting the disease, it must also clean up after a serious “chemical spill”.
    - Also the foreign tissue will challenge the immune system! It might actually
    cause all kinds of allergic reactions, as foreign protein entered undigested,
    directly into the blood should do!

    Those two additional challenges to the immune system will cause the body to
    experience the stress of three challenges at one time! This will, generally, take just
    about all its capacity. Some research shows that we talk about 60-75% of that
    capacity when we use a killed vaccine, and some 75-90% when we used a modified
    live vaccine.

    What if the dog is sick at the time of vaccination?

    As you can understand from the way a vaccine uses the immune system’s capacity,
    there will be a problem if the dog gets vaccinated at a time when it is already using
    the immune system to fight another real disease. It could be something fairly
    harmless that easily can be defeated, but when the vaccine gets added to the
    picture, that picture changes dramatically….

    We now have a competitive situation. The immune system has its limited capacity.
    Here is one on-going battle that typically takes about half its capacity – and now
    another challenge is introduced that demands way more attention than what it has
    left of its capabilities! The result is that it must prioritize and concentrate on fighting
    the most dangerous threat first. This will often be the current disease. But the
    effect of that is that no immunity will be established against the vaccine – because,
    at the time the immune system comes around to fighting it, it is very obvious that
    this threat is fake – so it won’t be taken seriously. That means: the vaccine did not
    work…

    A very dangerous alternative to this is that some modified live vaccines “wake up”
    when they got time to nourish themselves a regain their strength – and the dog will
    not experience a full-fledged attack by the disease you were trying to protect it
    from!

    Another possibility is that the immune system will concentrate on the vaccine – and
    leave the other disease to rampage the body and possibly do much more harm than
    otherwise. The dog might actually get so sick from something fairly simple that it
    can die from it.

    Finally, those remains of the foreign tissue will, in both cases, probably be left to
    float around in the blood – and do a lot of damage. Once the immune system finally
    gets around to dealing with this problem, the damage can be significant. This will
    result in the body now perceiving a very serious threat from these protein molecules
    from the foreign tissue – so it will over-react in its defense against them. And that
    is exactly what happens when an allergy reaction is created. The net result is that
    the dog developed some serious allergies to certain proteins that are similar to those
    that were in the virus tissue – and those will very often be from animals that are
    used for dog food. Voila – we now have a serious food allergy!

    What about multiple vaccinations?

    Let’s assume we let the vet administer a “combi-shot”, i.e. a mix of several vaccines
    in the same injection.

    When we consider the capacity of the immune system, we can easily see that this is
    not a smart move…. Each vaccine will need at least 60% of the body’s capacity for
    immune defense in order to create an effective protection against this disease. We
    will get the same situation as we had when we discussed vaccinating a sick dog.
    Maximum one of the vaccines will work – and maybe none – and we won’t know
    until it is too late… Mixing more than two vaccines just makes it even worse.
    This has been confirmed by practical research. The famous Swiss Distemper
    epidemic in 1984 is a prime example that clearly showed that dogs that had been
    vaccinated with combined Distemper-Parvo vaccines contracted Distemper as easily
    as dogs that had not been vaccinated at all!

    In human medicine, this is well known. In Sweden and Japan, for instance,
    vaccinating a person with more than one vaccine at a time is prohibited by law.
    The US Army is probably the worst abuser of this rule, demanding multiple
    vaccinations of its personnel – and trying to explain away the many casualties its
    gets from this ridiculous procedure that might be cost effective in terms of a military
    perspective – but certainly completely unacceptable from a humane standpoint.
    So, why should we do this to our dogs….?

    Mogens Eliasen
    -------------------------------------------
    Mogens Eliasen holds a Ph.D. level degree in Chemistry from Århus University, Denmark and has 30+
    years of experience working with dogs, dog owners, dog trainers, and holistic veterinarians as a coach,
    lecturer, and education system developer. He publishes a free newsletter "The Peeing Post" containing
    lots of tips and advice on dog problems of all kinds, particularly about training, behavioral problems,
    f eeding, and health care
    .

    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

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    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    Thanks so much, dear! ;D I knew I could count on you for a "butt load" of info! lol
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

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    Fallriver's Avatar
    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    No problem...I am verbose when it comes to some subjects

    By the way, do your ferrets stay inside? If so, where do you think they will get the distemper from? The only place they could get this airborn disease is through the breath of an infected animal.
    The only other way they could get it is when it is shed through your dogs when you vaccinate them for distemper...just food for thought :
    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

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    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    I was told that distemper was able to travel on clothing and whatnot, and that the they could get infected even if the ferrets do not go outside.


    How can the Virus spread?

    Canine Distemper is spread through bodily secretions (nasal fluid for example) The most common form of transmission is airborne. Dogs become infected by
    breathing in particles secreted by infected hosts. For several weeks after recovery, a dog will still carry the virus which can lead to further contamination
    if not properly quarantined.

    http://www.dogflu.ca/canine-distemper


    Even if its not true, they still go to the vet (where there are dogs) and they travel in the care sometimes to go visit their "auntie" and "uncle" at a local ferret shelter (where dogs are also present) do you think I should vaccinate them for distemper or not? Ferrets are fragile animals to begin with, I do not want to put them at risk by over vaccinating, but at the same time, distemper is 100% fatal in them and I worry they might contract it. What are your thoughts on this?
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

  8. #6
    Fallriver's Avatar
    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    Geez, I don't know too much about it, only the mode of transmission.
    You would have to know the prevalence for ferrets and make a decision from there.
    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

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    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    Gotcha. Thanks!
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

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    talleyJudy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    A good book on the subject of vaccination is;

    Vaccine Guide for Dogs & Cats by Catherine J.M. Diodati, MA

    My Public Library has a copy that can be acquired through InterLibrary Loan or it can be bought on Amazon. Pretty much similar information as 'FallRiver" has given but in 'hard copy' with many, many references for those who are hard to convince.

    "If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." author Will Rogers

    Auggie 12/29/95 ~ 01/15/09

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    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    Thank you! I will most definitly check that out!
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

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    DefaultRe: Fallriver...can you help me, pretty please?

    So then instead of revacinating I could have Titers done to check for immunity? I had Ambers puppy shots and her Rabies shot and then when it came time to renew her registration I had just the Rabies shot done. About 8-10 hours after the rabies shot she started itching and had some severe ear pain. I took her back to the original vet and they said I would have to make an appointment I then just took her straight to an emergency vet as she wasn't acting quite right. At the vet her ears were clean and smelled clean but were red and hot. the vet gave me some drops for her ears and told me that it was probably a mild delayed reaction to the vaccine.
    I am now worried about what to do when her next rabbies vaccine is due...I amd going to see if I can get a rabbies Titer and see if I can get a waivier for the vaccine due to medical risk? I think this is possible? not sure.
    Any advice?

    Kelly and Amber

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