Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines
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Thread: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

  1. #1
    Fallriver's Avatar
    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultMaking Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    I am posting this to a new thread as I want to share some thoughts on the above that might help us to organize our thoughts when making decisions on this stuff.

    When trying to evalute the risks and benefits of things such as heartworm 'preventives', remember that we can not escape risk, only trade one in for another.

    I like the comparison of natural rearing to that of driving a car. There is deadly risk involved in driving cars and we see the carnage daily on the news. But it is a risk that we are willing to take in exchange for the benefits and convenience that driving a car affords us...driving cars gives us a much better quality of life, even though we have increased our chances of sudden death of dismemberment.

    Try to view natural medicine in the paradigm.

    I think Mogens Elliasson has an excellent guideline for making these decisions:

    There are five criteria that drugs or vaccinations should be evaluated against:

    1) The disease must be fatal or having a high mortality rate.
    2) The cure must be non-existent or of dubious nature.
    3) The vaccine or drug must be proven effective.
    4) The side effects of the vaccine or drug must be acceptably small or negligible.
    5) The overall risk of the disease must be greater than the overall risk of
    the vaccination or drug.


    1) The disease must be fatal or having a high mortality rate.

    Heartworm infestation has a 90% mortality rate (I think...if anyone finds different, let me know) if not treated. The adult heartworms usually take several years to kill, but they do in fact kill once they take hold. NOTE: this does not mean that dogs who have a positive heartworm test have a high mortality rate...we are talking about dogs who's hearts are full of adult worms. Many dogs who test positive for a few heart worms will test negative the next time around.

    2) The vaccine or drug must be proven effective

    The cure is existent and the mortality rate is between 1% and 2% when treated with the newer Immiticide as opposed to Caparsolate (which used to cause more deaths due to clotting and created liver and kidney damage which the Immiticide does not seem to do). Expected lifespan after heartworm treatment is now the same as a dog who was not treated.

    3) The vaccine or drug must be proven effective

    Ivermectin is effective in that it will kill eggs and larvae (not adult heartworms)...that is why we need to administer the drugs monthly: to rid the body of any possible eggs before they grow into adults. I should also add that it is not 100% effective and dogs on preventives do still get heartworm. OVerall however, it is effective. Now, this may be interesting: http://web.archive.org/web/200406120...tworm/hw_3.htm
    If you look, you will find that the incidence of hearworm has vastly increased in the last 30 or 40 years...about the same timeframe that we have been giving multiple vaccinations!

    4) The side effects of the vaccine or drug must be acceptably small or negligible

    Well, in the case of Proheart 6, this certainly is not the case!! The drugs used in heartworm preventives are neurotoxins.
    Ivermectin acts on insects by potentiation of GABA-ergic neural and neuromuscular transmission but since mammals have only central GABA-ergic synapses which are to a large extent protected by the blood-brain barrier they are relatively resistant to ivermectin. Some penetration of the blood-brain barrier does occur at relatively high doses, with brain levels peaking between two and five hours after administration. Symptoms seen in a range of mammalian species are CNS depression, and consequent ataxia, as might be expected from potentiation of inhibitory GABA-ergic synapses (Hayes & Laws, 1991).


    Canine Heartworm Medication Adverse Reaction Comparisons
    (Source, FDA, As of 5/03/2004)
    Drug Total Adverse Reactions Total Deaths Year Approved Avg. Reactions Avg. Deaths Form

    ProHeart 6 (Moxidectin): 4499 415 2001 1500 138 Injection
    Revolution (Selamectin): 8695 181 1999 1737 36 Topical
    Interceptor (Milbemycine oxime): 1922 84 1995 214 9 Oral
    Heartguard (Ivermectin/Pyrantel): 2840 51 1996 355 6 Oral
    Sentinel (Milbemycine oxide/luferon): 892 25 1999 233 6 Oral


    Dont forget that most reactions are vastly under-reported.

    Dr. Martin Goldstein states: "Only a small percentage of dogs who get heartworm die of it, especially if they're routinely tested twice yearly for early detection. Even in untreated dogs, after a period of uncomfortable symptoms, the adult worms die... The chances of a microfilaria-infected mosquito biting your dog the first time are slim. Of it happening to the same dog twice? Very slim...Early in my career, I saw and treated hundreds of cases of heartworm disease, most with routine medication, yet witnessed only three deaths (the last was in 1979). By comparison, we're seeing, cancer kill dogs on a daily basis. To my mind, the likelihood that toxicity from heartworm pills is contributing to the tremendous amount of immune suppression now occurring, especially in cases of liver disease and cancer, is far greater and more immediate than the threat of the disease they're meant to prevent...

    As a precaution, I recommend that all dogs be tested twice a year for heartworm. For clients who insist on a more active form of prevention, I suggest doses of black walnut given two to three times a week, as I've actually reversed clinical heartworm with it..."

    This takes us to: 5) The overall risk of the disease must be greater than the overall risk of the vaccination or drug.

    In the case or heartworm, I'm not convinced this is the case. Once again, our dogs are literally dropping dead or suffering from immune related diseases such as allergies, skin issues, cancer, thyroid problems, kidney and liver failure...

    There are enough coyotes and wolves out there with positive heartworm tests who live long lives, and lots of pet dogs. We have the ability to test for heartworm yearly or more if desired to catch heartworm before it becomes enough of a problem that damage from treatment becomes an issue.

    But, if ten different people add up these five criteria, they may all come to different conclusions because risk is also relative to each individual.

    I know hundreds of people who live in heartworm infested areas that don't give preventives and have never had a case of heartworm. I also know people who have successfully treated heartworm naturally without the danger and exercise restrictions of traditional medicine. There are plenty of effective natural remedies for heartworm including: http://www.danebytes.com/heartworm-cures.htm

    Finally, infected mosquitos can pass heartworm on to people too. Usually in humans, the worms migrate to the lungs instead of the heart. There are normally few symptoms noticed with human heartworm infestation.

    Why do you think that is ???

    This is a completely biased report, but there is enough information out there to support heartworm testing that I thought it necessary.

    Back to the car driving paradigm...if you choose to forego heartworm treatment, yes you may be risking an accident. It may be fatal or it may just be a fender bender..you never know and that is life. You could choose to give preventives or take the bus, but you will be missing out on a lot in life and your dog might too...he may suffer from liver disease or chronic ear infections from the chemical onslaught.

    So, you can drive or you can take the bus and be happy either way...that's what makes the world go round 8)

    Anyway, I though I would share these criteria so you all can come to your own conclusions







    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

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    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Very interesting Dana!
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
    FallRiver's Micah of Waltona GN RAE, Canadian CD, RN

    www.labmed.org


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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Vaccine Guide for Dogs and Cats: What Every Pet Lover Should Know by Catherine J. M. Diodati, MA is also a very interesting read.

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    theoconbrio is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Thanks so much! I'm going to pore over this.

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    May
    May is offline
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Brilliant! Thanks for the great research!

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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by theoconbrio
    Thanks so much! I'm going to pore over this.
    Ditto...thanks for posting this.

  9. #7
    ObedienceLabs4Me is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by FallRiver

    Once again, our dogs are literally dropping dead or suffering from immune related diseases such as allergies, skin issues, cancer, thyroid problems, kidney and liver failure...
    Another cause of the increase in these problems is the generations of over vaccinating. If you go on the American Animal Hospital Association's website they list a number of symptoms/problems seen with dogs that have vaccinosous. Just Google "canine allergies to vaccines" and see the number of hits and the information that is out there. Even with the AAHA putting out new protycal for vaccinating, most vets, at least in my area, are still vaccinating annually. Plus, they are doing all the shots at once and often including the rabies in that as well.

    Another factor in the increase in cancers is the generations of dogs being fed a diet high in carbohydrates. Most people do realize that cancer cells feed off of carbs.

    There has to be a cost to what we are doing do our pets we say we love. All the chemicals to prevent fleas, etc. The over vaccinating. We don't think about the cost of all that. I wonder what we would do if we read the sheets that are suppose to come with the shots about the possible side effects. Would we still do it? We all need to draw our own conclusions.

    Personally since I do take Caleb to the nursing home where my Mom was at I had his holistic vet do his rabies shot. I titer everything else, which Therapy Dog International does accept. We all want to do what is best for our dogs.
    Susan
    UCDX GRCH Dunn's Marsh Caleb of Waltona UDX3, OM3, RAE Canadian UD, RE
    FallRiver's Micah of Waltona GN RAE, Canadian CD, RN

    www.labmed.org


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    Apollopuppy is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    Vaccinations are very scary. As many of you know, I've got six ferrets. As many of you may NOT know, ferrets are given yearly vaccinations for rabies and Canine Distemper. They are such tiny critters that many often have allergic reactions and die from vaccines. Its a very big, very real fear of many owners. Canine distemper is 100% fatal in ferrets, but sometimes I wonder if risking an anaphalactic reaction is worse. Its truely a scary thing. Being knew to the dog world, I will admit my ignorance in not realizing that dogs too commonly get allergic reactions to vaccinations. It really does make you wonder if we truely are doing whats "best" for our animals by vaccinating them. I think FallRiver made an excellent point about "trading one risk for another".
    Love,<br />Giuli<br /><br />

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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    While I do agree with some of what you posted Dana, I think that the impression you give is that it is in the best interest of our pets not to provide these vaccinations or preventatives.

    It is illegal where I live not to give a yearly booster and a three year rabies...with or without titre! I give my puppies three sets of immunizations then a rabies. I would rather that then to have a puppy come down with parvo since my dogs are all over exposed outside the home. I give heartguard because the risk of preventative medicine is less then the risk of actual treatment, for me anyhow. I would hate to see my pet suffer as I have seen others suffer because I was affraid to give the preventative.

    I think coming on a pet board and sending out statements like "natural rearing gives us a much better quality of life" is vague and missleading to the general public. Pet owners want to do what is best for their pets by whatever means. Certainly you can attest that having a puppy or dog sick or unwell in any circumstances is heartwrenching, but when it is something that can be prevented by simple once a month chewable or puppy innoculation...

    Humans are vaccinated all the time for silly things. I am forced to get a flu shot each year for the company I work for etc. In the end I do not think that this is an unreasonable request, in the same right I do not think it unreasonable for dogs to have yearly innoculations IF they have never had problems with vaccines before. Obviously if there is a concern then yes, by all means take precaution when vaccinating. I am just concerned that someone will come on this board and read this article and figure "this breeder doesn't give heartworm preventative, why should I?" and not give it a second thought. We have to be careful what messages we are sending out.

    I am also curious for those who do not vaccinate how you travel accross international borders with your dogs? I know Susan you come to Canada with Caleb, do you have reports of titres etc?

  12. #10
    Fallriver's Avatar
    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Making Sense of Drugs and Vaccines

    I think that the impression you give is that it is in the best interest of our pets not to provide these vaccinations or preventatives.
    That is the impression I intend to give. Dr. Ronald Schultz and Jean Dodds are two of the most respected immunologists in North America and they both give one set of shots at 12 or 16 weeks to their own pets and are done for life with the exception of rabies which is required by law.

    It is illegal where I live not to give a yearly booster and a three year rabies
    They require rabies only in every province and state...not a yearly booster for anything else. Ontario also allows an exemption for pets who have had vaccine reactions, as do many other states and provinces.

    I would hate to see my pet suffer as I have seen others suffer because I was affraid to give the preventative.
    I hate to see pets suffer from epilepsy, cruciate injuries, allergies, kidney and liver failure, degenerative myelopathy, aggression, allergies, IBS and many other immune problems that have all been linked to vaccines. If you would like references, I can provide them. With the large incidence of cruciate injuries in our breed, it might interest you to know that distemper antigens from the vaccine are found in those compromised joints. Vaccinosis is not as straight forward and certainly not as acute as many would think and we are just beginning to identify this.

    We have to be careful what messages we are sending out.
    Yes, we do. We need also need to be careful when recommending 'simple' pills such as heartworm pills that we know can result in harmful long term effects on our pets.

    I believe I stated over and over again that we all have to weigh the risks and benefits and come to our own conclusions and know what risks we are able to live with and which we aren't. But if you think there aren't any risks associated with vaccines, pesticides and poisons, then you may need to dig a little deeper. We can not make the right decision if we are not well informed.

    I did not post this to the general chat section, it is posted to the Natural/Raw Diets and HOLISTIC CARE section where I assume it finds the right audience which is people who are interested in holistic care. I have not made one statement that can not be referenced by researchers who certainly know a lot more about this than I do.

    I'm not sure why you would have a problem with people posting about holistic care in the holistic care section ???
    That is what holistic care is....light vaccinations, avoidance of unnecessary poisons and pesticides and the use of alternative or complimentary health care in lieu of allopathic medicine. The very fact that you say you hate to see pets suffer when a simple preventive can be given is proof that you do not understand holistic care and that's OK because a lot of people don't. Western medicine is very much fear driven and focuses on treating the symptoms. Holistic Care is about creating a healthy animal who is naturally able to fight disease on his own. It is about achieving good health as opposed to avoiding disease...there is a very important difference between the two and one that can be difficult to grasp at first because so much of our decision making has been driven by fear.

    Every veterinary teaching college in the United States has moved away from a yearly to three year booster...I wonder why you think it reasonable to suggest yearly boosters when there has been an abundance of reasearch showing by both challenge and serology that core vaccines last for at least 7 years. It has never been proven that boosters are necessary at all.

    The people in this section need more credit than you give them as it sounds to me that they have done their research.

    As for crossing the border, you need proof of rabies vaccination. They will accept a three year titre as long as the expiry date is not overdue.





    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

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