Exercise Induced Collapse
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    jazzypad1's Avatar
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    DefaultExercise Induced Collapse

    Does anyone have a lab on the Carnitine?Enzyme Q10 cocktail for exercise induced collapse?

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    Bob Pr. is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    I Googled Exercise Induced Collapse and found several old articles of which this is representative:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/h...Character_EIC_

    It mentions the meds you mention but says each seems to help some Labs but not all.

    Good luck. I've seen a Lab with EIC and it's scary.
    Puff [YF, AKC field line (from competing HT/FT breeder) 62 lbs, dob: 8-'01]

    Bess [BF, AKC bench line (from competing show breeder) 55 lbs., 1967-1981] "Poor Bess, the Wonder Dog":
    http://forum.justlabradors.com/showt...?p=748#post748

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    Thanks.
    We don't know for sure if it is EIC that is affected Monty. He's been collapsing for two yrs now. It was diagnosed as paroxysmal dyskinesia (for which no treatment is on offer other than anti-convulsants - and these are not working on other labs with this condition). Then I had Monty DNA tested for EIC and he does have one copy of the mutant gene responsible. But as it is thought to be autosomal recessive it shouldn't affect dogs with only one copy of the gene. But a tiny number of "carriers" are experiencing collapse. I've asked our neurologist if it would be worth giving one of the EIC treatments a trial and she has agreed. So I am keen to find out whatever I can from lab owners who have had dogs on one of these treatments. He's collapsed more than 25 times now - and the episodes are mainly triggered by over-excitement (he is a very excitable dog!)
    June

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    Bob Pr. is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    ....I had Monty DNA tested for EIC and he does have one copy of the mutant gene responsible. But as it is thought to be autosomal recessive it shouldn't affect dogs with only one copy of the gene. But a tiny number of "carriers" are experiencing collapse.... He's collapsed more than 25 times now - and the episodes are mainly triggered by over-excitement (he is a very excitable dog!)
    It sure sounds like EIC, doesn't it? Since all of the recommended meds help some but not all, if it were me, I think I'd first try the one with the fewest side effects and test Monty on each one to see which, if any, provided some relief.
    Puff [YF, AKC field line (from competing HT/FT breeder) 62 lbs, dob: 8-'01]

    Bess [BF, AKC bench line (from competing show breeder) 55 lbs., 1967-1981] "Poor Bess, the Wonder Dog":
    http://forum.justlabradors.com/showt...?p=748#post748

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    (Editted later to say that I don't know how I missed the post above, LOL! Must have been talking on the phone at the same time and zoomed right by that! )

    Did you know that your vet can send a blood sample the U of MN for positive diagnosis?

    http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_B.../eic/home.html

    See the panel off to the right of that page for submitting samples. What I've read on the RTF forum is the supplements do very little for most dogs who are affected, unfortunately. It really comes down to management, learning to read the dog. Personally I wish they'd hurry up and get the darned test done as I was one of the few who submitted my whole gang during the research phase and had a couple surprises (suspected carriers stemming from one stud). I don't know if they are doubting the mode of inheritance now or what, but are only using the test to confirm EIC affecteds currently. I've fortunately never seen an EIC affected pup personally but don't want to either!

    WindyCanyon Girls, August 2014

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    Thanks for your input. Monty was DNA tested by the University of Minnesota. The result showed that he is a carrier for EIC. It is interesting Birdbrainz that you also have dogs with one copy of the gene. Have any ever showed any signs of problems? As far as I know, only four UK dogs took part in the research - two were litter mates and were clear, then there was Monty - a carrier, and I know of another young UK lab that was experiencing collapses similar to Monty's - his result also came back as a carrier - and a few weeks ago he collapsed and died very suddenly. I don't know the cause. I am at a loss to understand how they can say that EIC is an autosomal recessive condition, and yet they also say that a small number of carriers are collapsing? There must surely be some degree of penetrance?

    Monty has always been exercise intolerant for a young dog - and had heart tests done when he was a year old - these showed no problems at all.
    He tires quickly, and pants excessively and for a long time. Monty decides when to end the exercise session - not me. I know when he refuses to put the ball back into my hand that he's had enough. I am extra careful on warm days (not that we get many of them here in the cold North East of England!).

    He began to have collapses in August 2006, and has more than 25 now. Almost every episode is triggered by excitement (he is a very excitable boy). At first it would be when we were out playing or training, or he would be running around a field with another dog. But many have now happened at home - often just a reaction to something like the mailman. He will hear him - run, barking, towards the door, then his legs go all over the place like spaghetti and he goes down. If I allow him to try to get up again he will struggle to do so - but keep going down. An episode can last anything from 2 mins up to 25 mins. He is fully conscious and alert throughout, and once the episode is over he gets up and runs around as if nothing had happened. This was diagnosed at a leading vet research unit here in the UK as paroxysmal dyskinesia, and a few more young labs have been seen there with similar presentation. This condition is thought to be similar to the Chinook "seizure"

    At the beginning vets thought it may be some type of partial seizure - but that was discounted. EIC had been considered a possibility at one stage but was ruled out when Monty had a full neuromuscular workup done. But his exercise intolerance has still niggled at the back of my mind - so when I heard about the DNA research at Minnesota I sent off a sample for DNA analysis. My thoughts being that it would either be positive and confirm EIC - or it would be negative and then I could put EIC totally out of my mind. But it turned out to be not quite so simple!

    In the absence of any appropriate treatment for paroxysmal dyskinesia - Monty's neurologist has now agreed that maybe we could try him on one of the EIC treatments - just in case it may help. I'm not expecting any miracles - but it shouldn't cause any harm - and who knows?! It's got to be better than drugging him up with anticonvulsants, which are unlikely to help anyway.

    Anyone interest in seeing one of Monty's episodes - I have put a short video clip onto Photobucket -

    http://s303.photobucket.com/albums/n...t=525d71c4.pbr

    But please be aware that I got Monty to try to move around on this occasion purely for the purposes of the video - I normally just keep him down in one position and give lots of reassurance.

    If anyone knows of a lab having similar episodes I would love to hear from them. Also anybody with an EIC dog that has been on any of the current treatments for EIC.

    June and Monty

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    June,

    Sorry I seemed to have missed the posts right after your initial one! LOL. I obviously was havign a brain fart.... :surprise:

    No, I've never had anything even remotely indicative of EIC w/ my dogs carrier or not, and they have had PLENTY of opportunities to show me if there was a problem. I've had the so-called carriers swimming in the big irrigation canal (very swift current... think oversized highest current setting lap pool where they are in tread mill position making very little progress upstream) to "get the ducks" who play decoy to protect their young. The canal fun is part of our regular 3 milers offlead where they flush birds and chase sage rats and bunnies... sometimes in much warmer conditions than common sense would dictate otherwise.

    What is interesting in my case is that it's my MUCH mellower ones that came back as carriers. My wilder ones (oldest field bred, Gala and her daughter Rosa and granddaughter Mata) were all Clear according to the test, yet I had suspected that a brother of my oldest may have had "something" wrong as he had an odd incident once as a youngster after getting excited, but never again. Later the owners said he could have gotten a small exposure to mouse bait but we'll never know. That was why I was interested in having my gang checked (besides the fact that I breed, so all of this is very important!). Anyhow, Gala (sister) was Clear. Of course my concern is with those Carriers they say may be symptomatic. It really makes me question if the mode of inheritance is truly recessive, and the fact they don't have the final test out yet and are now talking of only accepting blood samples makes me question it further. Will it be like the PRA test in that they want to save some blood for future use in case they find their test isn't right? I just don't know.... but I personally am a bit irritated that there hasn't been much communication recently.

    I hope you get some answers on Monty, but in the meantime, I have to wonder about neurological supplements like cholodin, which helps w/ doggy dementia, LP, and other stuff. Worth a try?

    WindyCanyon Girls, August 2014

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    Good to hear that your dogs have not had problems Birdbrainz!
    I think the point you make about the DNA testing not being generally available yet could be very relevant. When I first heard about the Minnesota test I understood that it would become commercially available very early in 2008. But it has not happened as yet? I know that Monty was one of the later dogs tested as part of the research, and they were keen to have some dogs tested from Europe (including here in the UK). I know a few German dogs showed as affected, and there were quite a few carriers there too. Curiously, although I sent in cheek swabs, I later also had to send in a blood sample before I got a result.
    When I got Monty's test result sheet showing his carrier status, I couldn't understand how they can say that a small number (even if just a few?) of carriers have been found to have collapses (other than those found to be collapsing for different reasons) - but I'm no expert on genetics. So I asked some members of our UK Labrador Forum who are much more knowledgeable in these matters than I am. They said that if this was the case, then there must be some degree of dominance. I have also been in touch with the UK Kennel Club's genetics advisor - for two reasons really. 1) if Monty and the other young labs diagnosed at the research centre do have paroxysmal dyskinesia (and vets say that this is most probably genetic), then it is time that the blood lines of these dogs were analysed, and 2) if the Minnesota testing is correct - then the EIC gene is definitely here in our UK labradors (most "experts" here have been burying their heads in the sand in the belief that EIC is a condition only found in N. American dogs) - and if so then awareness needs to be raised among veterinarians and breeders - and the Breed Council, in conjunction with the Kennel Club should be looking at using this test here in the UK. I explained to the geneticist that I am not fully conversant with the various modes of inheritance, and he agreed with the other people I had discussed this with - if a condition is truly autosomal recessive there is no way a dog with one copy of the gene could be affected.
    Incidentally, before I contacted him, the Kennel Club geneticist was unaware of any DNA test for EIC, and he had never heard of paroxysmal dyskinesia. Neither had members of the Labrador Breed Council, or the British Veterinary Association!
    I really think that awareness needs to be raised about both of these conditions.
    Thank you for taking an interest in Monty's problem. It is much appreciated.
    June

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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    I just want to chime in that they're not taking in any more blood samples I don't believe in that study. the last I heard, we should have the "official" EIC test sometime this year.



    Laura





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    DefaultRe: Exercise Induced Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by labby
    I just want to chime in that they're not taking in any more blood samples I don't believe in that study. the last I heard, we should have the "official" EIC test sometime this year.
    They ARE taking blood samples from dogs that have had episodes of collapse if you look at the link on the website I posted earlier (during brain fart). But no, not for research. The final test was supposed to have been released to the public in March, then I heard June-- July at the latest. That was 3 months ago and other than the fact there was a conference recently in Europe, along w/ a couple other working genetics groups (CNM and epilepsy I believe), I've not heard a thing.

    WindyCanyon Girls, August 2014

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