Breeders: a question for you
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Thread: Breeders: a question for you

  1. #1
    smokey's Avatar
    smokey is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultBreeders: a question for you

    My puppy came down with Parvo in October after having been properly and fully vaccinated by our veterinarian. We didn't think to let our breeder know, thought it was our misfortune. We opted after his full recovery to have additional testing and titers done to find out if he was protected against the other things he was vaccinated for (he is). We got a letter from the University Veterinary research office that did his lab tests. It seems that being a non-responder is genetic. His breeder was then notified, I don't want anything from her but for her to know and maybe watch/titer the parents or Smokey's siblings. She got really irate and rude. I was careful and thought I asked the right questions in the search for our pup.

    Is she just insulted that I may be suggesting she knew and didn't or could she have known and thought the people who bought her pups would never link it back or find out she may have known?

    I love my dog and wouldn't want another or anything from her besides that she not breed the dogs(s) that are producing non-responders as it is a terrible thing for not only the puppy to live through but for the people who love the puppy.

    What do you think?

    She does the health clearances and I got copies of them for both Smokey's sire and dam. They also compete with their dogs in field trials. Is this just a mishap?
    Smokey 4/25/2012

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    labby is offline Senior Member
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    Non responder as in what? Vaccine protection? I think saying it's genetic is a stretch and this is what I think the breeder was upset about. THERE IS NO GENETIC TEST A BREEDER CAN DO TO FIND OUT IF A PUPPY WILL NOT RESPOND TO VACCINES!!! I wasn't there when you called, so I don't know what was said or the tone it was stated.

    How old was the puppy when it received it's last puppy shot? That would always be my question if someone called me to tell me their puppy had contracted parvo. Many vets stop their puppy shots at 12-15 weeks. There have been studies done that full immunity does not occur unless a puppy gets a booster at 20 weeks and this is what I drill into my puppy peoples' heads. You may have to argue with the vet to get that last shot, but it MUST be done.

    Sometimes shit just happens, no matter what a breeder does. There are only a couple of tests/clearances that we do that are 100% accurate gene tests. Everything else is phenotype rather than genotype so stuff can still happen.

    I can say with almost complete certainty that she had no idea your puppy would end up with parvo. There is no way to know for sure. That she was told your puppy is a proven non-responsive is like waving a red cape in front of her eyes. Again, I doubt the accuracy of whatever test determined that and she was by no means at fault for what happened to your puppy.



    Laura





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    LuvBrown is offline Senior Member
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    I have never heard of dogs being non-responders to a particular vaccination. Even if that's the case, this is not something we test dogs for when doing clearances to see if dogs are OK for breeding. It's probably a genetic tick irregardless of breed.

    Dogs are living, breathing creatures and breeders can only be responsible for so much. I don't know why the breeder was upset with you. But it also depends on how you let them know. If you said that she should not be breeding "non-responders" I would have gotten pretty pissed too. If you addressed it as "guess what I found out, thought I would share" then it should have been an OK conversation.

    As far as I know, that is not a test done in ANY breed of dog. I don't know what this University Veterinary research office is, but it wouldn't be the first time I heard a big fat lie out of a vet saying how it was a genetic problem and the breeder's fault.

    Now I am off to research this anomoly.

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    LuvBrown is offline Senior Member
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    Just an FYI, after a google search, I did not hit on one article that supported a genetic predisposition to not responding to vaccinations. There is some info out there stating that if a puppy, or a litter of puppies, or adult dogs have a predisposition to reacting adversely to particular vaccinations that "maybe" those lines should not be bred. But that's not the same thing as what you are talking about.

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    Thank you for your responses. I was not and am not upset with the breeder. I just did want her to know what we found out. I was not accusatory towards her at all, she may have thought I was seeking compensation-I wasn't. Merial, the manufacturer of the vaccinations used Paid Smokey's hospitalization, we paid for the antibody titers after he recovered.

    The School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Wisconsin-Madison is where his labs were done.

    The letter we got states: "Non-responsiveness is genetically determined; therefore certain breeds or especially families of dogs have a higher number of non-responders than would be found in the general population of dogs."

    It is still rare and I am not angry, I just wasn't aware if it was something that may be known. If you had told me yes, it was likely she knew, then and only then would I be upset and voice to her that I did not think her dog should be producing puppies--I said nothing like that to her.

    It is obvious to me by your responses that our breeder did not know such a thing and I will leave it at that. We still got an awesome dog that fits our family well and we will continue to love him and give him the best life that we can.

    Smokey received his last booster at 18 weeks. He did develop antibodies to the other things he was vaccinated against. He just did not to parvo.

    Thank You for taking the time to give me your opinions, I will email his breeder and apologize if she thought I was accusing her of any wrong doing, I just wanted her to know what we were told.
    Smokey 4/25/2012

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    I am not a breeder, and I had never heard of this, but I find it interesting . . .

    If the dog is truly a "non-responder" to the parvo vaccine, why would the vaccine manufacturer pay for the hospitalization? That doesn't make sense to me. It makes me wonder if perhaps the manufacturer knew there was a bad production of the vaccine, paid the vet bills, and came up with this weird "non-responder" thing to take the heat off themselves.
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    Belles mom is offline Senior Member
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    Well, at least it was not a Fort Dodge vaccine....


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    Shelley is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BauersMom View Post
    I am not a breeder, and I had never heard of this, but I find it interesting . . .

    If the dog is truly a "non-responder" to the parvo vaccine, why would the vaccine manufacturer pay for the hospitalization? That doesn't make sense to me. It makes me wonder if perhaps the manufacturer knew there was a bad production of the vaccine, paid the vet bills, and came up with this weird "non-responder" thing to take the heat off themselves.
    Most vaccine companies will guarantee their vaccine's efficacy. For example, I use Vanguard Plus 5 vaccines, and they will cover treatment costs. Merial, (in the OP's case) was just backing up it's product.

    "The Pfizer Support Guarantee: Pfizer’s Immunization Support Guarantee provides coverage for all reasonable diagnostic and treatment costs up to $5000 if a pet vaccinated with one of the antigens in our Pfizer Vanguard Plus Vaccines contracts the corresponding disease."

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