I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....
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Thread: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

  1. #1
    Baloo317's Avatar
    Baloo317 is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultI find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    all the talk about dominance, horrible advice given that I hear.

    I was at the dog park the other day with "the regulars" and this lady's 7 month old dane pup was acting crazy (you know, like 7 month old pups do... :P) and the lady was given advice by three different people about her dog's dominant behaviour. :

    The one other lady insisted that she must grab said dane puppy by the jowls when she acts like that and stare into her eyes scolding her in a growly tone. Because you know, "that's the only way she'll see you as alpha". : X 100.

    Later on we were talking about the benefits/drawbacks of owning different breeds. I mentioned off-hand that dominance wasn't something I worried about with Baloo. The one other gentleman then decided it was his mission in life to assure me that I did in fact need to worry about dominance issues, because every single dog owner should be worried about dominance issues. I brushed it off nonchalantly, but he and the rest of them kept coming back to it. "you know, eventually you'll have to make sure he knows who's boss"..... "yah but he's still young now, just you wait....if you don't teach him right now eventually he'll think he can get away with biting people." ......... "it's for his own good to 'roll him' every once in awhile, helps maintain the status quo"

    Some of this stuff I'm laughing as I type it out because it is just so ridiculous. When they were saying it they were so serious, they truly believed in it. :-\

    I've heard this all over, time and time again. You have to be alpha and do things to prove to your dog that you are alpha everyday, make sure they know who's boss, make sure you come across as strong and dominant at all times....... Oye.

    What's happening here...?? I feel like so much of the dog owning society has gone crazy. Some people I meet I honestly feel that they got a dog just to have something to dominate, they're so into it. They address their dog in a "dominant" tone of voice, the dog slinks away in fear and they beam with pride. WTH is that...??

    And any defence I try to mount gets shot down with, "No this is the natural way of things, your way is just trainer mumbo jumbo. They aren't people, you know." AAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

    Whatever happened to the idea of "man's best friend", having a true relationship/friendship with your dog?? I know if I tried to alpha roll my human best friend she wouldn't be too pleased with me, probably she would like me a lot less. What happened to trust and respect?? *sigh*
    Kate
    Baloo - 5 year old black lab
    Peanut - 7 year old minpin
    Monster - 3-ish year old frenchie/jack, rescue
    We're Superdogs!


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  3. #2
    jzgrlduff's Avatar
    jzgrlduff is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    I see your point, Kate, but I see theirs too. Some dogs need constant reminders of who's boss. Not necessarily in the ways your dog park friends are talking about. I think it depends on the dog. I know quite of few JL people have done the alpha roll with their labs, others have grabbed the jowels, not to mention the "come to Jesus" meetings. My boys, on the other hand, need reminders but they are "easy" reminders :
    ~I go out the door first
    ~You sit and wait while I'm making your breakfast/dinner
    ~You lie down while I'm eating dinner
    ~You sit when I'm walking you and I stop suddenly when a car comes
    That kind of stuff.



    ______________
    ~Amy
    Califon, NJ
    Hunterdon County
    "Each is a creature of Earth and is entitled to reside on it with dignity"

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    Trickster's Avatar
    Trickster is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    I definitely agree.

    I don't want to stereotype, but IMO people who tend to believe and practice 'dominance' theories probably haven't read into the subject of behaviour at a deeper level. Because if they did, they would know and understand that the science behind these 'dominance' theories is false.

    That said, you can't really blame people for being ignorant on the subject. Average Joe is probably not interested in learning about behaviour, and Joe gets his/her information on dog training and behaviour from TV shows. And as mentioned in the previous thread about a certain dog trainer, a qualified behaviourist using positive reinforcement wouldn't exactly make gripping viewing, would it? :-\

    To someone who knows no better, those certain TV trainers look like miracle workers. Even members of my own family have fallen under their spell. :

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    Baloo317's Avatar
    Baloo317 is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    I understand that stuff Amy and do most of it myself, but I'm sorry, I fail to see where physical punishment or ridiculous attempts at physical "domination" are ever appropriate, much less "needed". :-\

    I am "alpha" in my house, but not because I yank at jowls and alpha roll and hit and scream and intimidate.
    Kate
    Baloo - 5 year old black lab
    Peanut - 7 year old minpin
    Monster - 3-ish year old frenchie/jack, rescue
    We're Superdogs!


  7. #5
    jzgrlduff's Avatar
    jzgrlduff is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    I am totally 100% against physical punishment.



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    ~Amy
    Califon, NJ
    Hunterdon County
    "Each is a creature of Earth and is entitled to reside on it with dignity"

  8. #6
    amazongold's Avatar
    amazongold is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jzgrlduff
    I see your point, Kate, but I see theirs too. Some dogs need constant reminders of who's boss. Not necessarily in the ways your dog park friends are talking about. I think it depends on the dog. I know quite of few JL people have done the alpha roll with their labs, others have grabbed the jowels, not to mention the "come to Jesus" meetings. My boys, on the other hand, need reminders but they are "easy" reminders :
    ~I go out the door first
    ~You sit and wait while I'm making your breakfast/dinner
    ~You lie down while I'm eating dinner
    ~You sit when I'm walking you and I stop suddenly when a car comes
    That kind of stuff.
    I did the alpha roll with Buddy about a month after we got him. He had never been trained, and at ~8 months old, thought he was the boss. There was a lot of nipping, grabbing, pulling, and demanding on his part. I tried other methods and nothing was working, I was at my wits' end with him. It took two times, and then the light bulb went on and he realized that *I* am the boss. No problems after that. I did not hurt him, or scream at him, just rolled him over and held him, while talking in a gruff tone.

    I also did it once with Champ, when he tried to mount me right after we got him. It never happened again.

    Both boys are always made to sit and wait before eating, to wait until we go in/out of doors first, lay down while we eat, and sit when we stop while walking. No other reminders of who is 'alpha' are necessary.

    With Shadow, there was never a reminder needed.
    Jackie, Champ, and Buddy

  9. #7
    kaytris is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jzgrlduff
    I am totally 100% against physical punishment.
    but that's what the following IS:
    " I know quite of few JL people have done the alpha roll with their labs, others have grabbed the jowels, not to mention the "come to Jesus" meetings. "

  10. #8
    jzgrlduff's Avatar
    jzgrlduff is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    but that's what the following IS:
    " I know quite of few JL people have done the alpha roll with their labs, others have grabbed the jowels, not to mention the "come to Jesus" meetings. "
    No, that's not what I meant. When I say physical punishment, I mean "hitting". I didn't say I did these things anyway, I said some JL people have done it. I'm not against these methods by any means, like I said, some dogs needs stronger methods. Jackie had the perfect example. And if you are going to use these methods, they shouldn't need to be used more than once, twice at the most. If it doesn't work after 2 times, it ain't gonna work.





    ______________
    ~Amy
    Califon, NJ
    Hunterdon County
    "Each is a creature of Earth and is entitled to reside on it with dignity"

  11. #9
    Chester B. Dickens is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    I believe in letting the dog's behavior dictate your response. If you've got as submissive dog that never challenges, great. Soft hand and gentle voice should do you well. If you've got a dog who's more into periodic challenging, you've got to maintain the upper hand and issue the reminders (see Amy's list).

    If you've got an absolute bull head who won't get the message by any other methods that it's your way or the highway, then and ONLY THEN do I see the value of things like a dominant down.

    And never hitting. Never ever ever.

  12. #10
    luke from georgia is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: I find this scary/worrisome/sad.....

    "You have credit cards, a computer, can drive a car, compose poetry and have him executed at your whim. You're dominant, don't worry, no need to feel insecure." ~ Jean Donaldson

    and i agree!

    dogs that misbehave need training. training will help them develop self control and act like well behaved members of the household long term. displays of dominance are momentary confrontations that pit you against your dog for reasons your dog probably doesn't understand.

    when dogs act out, specifically act out of control, and we are unable to provide order in the chaos, it's natural for us to try to startle or suppress the dog in some way. when we are successful in getting the dog to relax, that doesn't mean we became dominant or that they became submissive. it just means the dog was sufficiently startled or interrupted long enough to calm down.

    yes, dogs are social creatures and as pack animals, they understand something about who is a leader and who is not, but in a family structure, members of the pack don't live according to a strict hierarchy of rank and order, and the only consistency in which one is generally considered the leader is to the individual that provides the good things in life, like food, water, shelter, affection, etc. the individual that tries to force submission is not an alpha figure at all. usually that kind of individual is avoided and ignored.

    the only thing we need to do to maintain the leadership role is remind the dogs that we are the gate keepers to the good things in life.

    "Properly trained, a man can be dog's best friend." ~ Corey Ford

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