Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?
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Thread: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

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    meandclint is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultHershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    You wrote this in another thread:

    I would love to recommend the breeder we got HK from, but I won't. We do not know the source of her dental issues. Two potentials were identified to us, one genetic, and the other a high fever trauma before birth of before we got her at 10 weeks. If either were the cause, I would not want to be responsible for someone else having to deal wth the same issues. They have been helpful answering our questions,a nd putting us and the vets at the U in touch with owners of other pups from the same parents. A genetic link was NOT found.
    I remember you posting about dental surgery and all went well but I don't know what condition she had/has?

    Also I wanted to point out that breeders are not Gods. We can't sell all puppies that are 100% free of any and all problems! We try our very best by making sure that both parents are clear of any genetic physical conditions and come from sound lines however we don't know what genes they may carry and how the combination will match up. I'm sorry you had to go through something (I'm guessing a bad overbite and bottom teeth had to be pulled?) but not recommending the breeder because of this doesn't seem right.

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    Baloo317's Avatar
    Baloo317 is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    I think it had more to do with teeth that were discolored and malformed, if I remember correctly.

    And I wouldn't recommend a breeder if I had a dog with issues either, no matter how good they may be. :-\
    Kate
    Baloo - 5 year old black lab
    Peanut - 7 year old minpin
    Monster - 3-ish year old frenchie/jack, rescue
    We're Superdogs!


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    Scout and friends Guest

    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Scout developed orthopedic problems, and her breeder couldn't have been any more concerned, helpful, or supportive ... she was as upset about it as I was. She was a wonderful resource to me as I figured out what to do. She did all the clearances, health checks ... without any doubt, I feel certain she did all she could before this breeding. Sometimes things happen. In this case, when it did she stepped up and did what she could to help out one of her puppies and me as the puppy buyer.

    What more can you ask for?

    I absolutely will go back to her for my next pup. I feel I know more about her as a breeder than anyone else, so why would I go elsewhere.

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    HersheyK's Dad's Avatar
    HersheyK's Dad is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by WigWag
    You wrote this in another thread:

    I would love to recommend the breeder we got HK from, but I won't. We do not know the source of her dental issues. Two potentials were identified to us, one genetic, and the other a high fever trauma before birth of before we got her at 10 weeks. If either were the cause, I would not want to be responsible for someone else having to deal wth the same issues. They have been helpful answering our questions,a nd putting us and the vets at the U in touch with owners of other pups from the same parents. A genetic link was NOT found.
    I remember you posting about dental surgery and all went well but I don't know what condition she had/has?

    Also I wanted to point out that breeders are not Gods. We can't sell all puppies that are 100% free of any and all problems! We try our very best by making sure that both parents are clear of any genetic physical conditions and come from sound lines however we don't know what genes they may carry and how the combination will match up. I'm sorry you had to go through something (I'm guessing a bad overbite and bottom teeth had to be pulled?) but not recommending the breeder because of this doesn't seem right.
    I did not slam Hershey Kisses' breeder. I have not posted the name of the kennel, and never will. They have seriously tried to cooperate in every way they could, providing information and getting in touch with the other that had taken pups from HKs litter, and the previous litter from that pair. For those that gave permission, I was able to contact them directly. All gave permission for the University vets to contact them and they did. I really couldn't ask for more. Based on what we learned from those inputs, it would not appear to be an obvious genetic issue, or that the bitch when pregnant had a severe fever trauma. (The two most likely causes of HKs problem.) Based on that, I do not fault the breeder. If I did I would be on a campaign to distribute negative information. It may be a 1 in 10,000 possibility of HK just getting the wrong DNA combo and unfortunate. I am not angry. If I am anything it would be disappointment that HK had to suffer and will go through the rest of her life with less than a full set of teeth. For what it is worth, I don't think she cares. She is still our happy pup, full of energy wanting to please and play.

    HKs issue in enamel hypoplasia. Missing enamel on the teeth in her upper jaw from the left lateral incisor all the way around to the last molar on the right side, and one badly deformed premolar in that chain. The left upper lateral incisor had to be removed along with the premolar. The 6 center upper incisors either did not erupt and disintegrated before eruption or erupted with little or no enamal and disintegrated or had to be extracted because they were so bad. Three of the teeth, Canine, and two molars on her upper left side had large areas of missing enamel. If not treated these were openings for decay and eventual rotting. pain, eventual extraction. The vets were able to clean these areas out and put an acrylic fascia on them to protect the area. She will go beck to the U for annual dental examination to track the condition and take further action if necessary.

    Okay, that was a long detailed explanation. But for the breeders among us, I am not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I am just not going to promote the breeder that may/or may nat have a genetic fault in the line. I is not like I am accusing them of continuing to breed a pair that has produced poor results in joint screening or eye screening.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    meandclint is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Okay, that was a long detailed explanation. But for the breeders among us, I am not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong. I am just not going to promote the breeder that may/or may nat have a genetic fault in the line. I is not like I am accusing them of continuing to breed a pair that has produced poor results in joint screening or eye screening.
    Oh I never said you slammed them!

    Well then nobody can ever get a puppy from anyone because unfortunately there are "genetic faults" in ALL lines - no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Orthopedic conditions like hip dysplasia, OCD, cruciate tears and heart conditions, epilepsy, cancer and much more mild conditions like the one you mentioned and entropion of the eyes, etc are all problems that Labradors face.

    Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and can recommend or not recommend anyone however it's really not fair to say that you would not recommend an excellent breeder because you know of one dog with a problem especially such a minor one.

    Again we are not God. We can't guarantee anything. We can try hard and stack the deck in our favor but it's inevitable that problems will arise in a minority of puppies. I had a pup that had a huge overbite and another with an undescended testicle. These are minor "flaws" in otherwise healthy dogs but I have only produced three litters. I have friends that are excellent breeders with wonderful dogs and they have relatively few problems but have produced dogs with OCD, heart conditions, dysplasia, auto-immune disorders, and eye conditions.

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    meandclint is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    And I wouldn't recommend a breeder if I had a dog with issues either, no matter how good they may be.
    Guess what? Given the popularity of Labradors I guarantee that there are many many relatives of your dog that have all kinds of problems. What's his pedigree and I can tell you for sure.

    I'm sorry for being frank but this is a pet peeve of mine. I just had someone call me last week and slammed a breeder I know saying that they had to put their 12 year old yellow male to sleep because he had cancer and he also had "hip trouble" in the last few years of his life. They had a beautiful loving companion for 12 years who according to them rarely visited the vet. People get old and have problems and so do dogs. What did they want a dog to live to 20 years old and then die in it's sleep? I didn't get why they were upset with the breeder. Our first Lab Cuffy has OCD in his hock. I was upset of course but never "blamed" the breeder since his parents were OFA certified/eyes clear and we met them and they were healthy, etc. In fact we purchased Clint from them as well. Good thing I didn't write them off!!!!

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    HersheyK's Dad's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Wigwag,

    You are right of course. I don't know what the percentage of all breeders is, but I am confident that all of the breeders that we converse with on the JL forums are as conscientious as they can be with regard to their dogs and the breeding of same.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    Baloo317's Avatar
    Baloo317 is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by WigWag
    And I wouldn't recommend a breeder if I had a dog with issues either, no matter how good they may be.
    Guess what? Given the popularity of Labradors I guarantee that there are many many relatives of your dog that have all kinds of problems. What's his pedigree and I can tell you for sure.
    most likely, but not my point.

    Never did I say I would blame the breeder. That's ridiculous. But if my dog had issues, no, I would not recommend them. If someone recommended a breeder to me that had a dog with issues, I'd think they were a little loopy, too.

    In the same way that if I got a car that was a lemon, I wouldn't recommend that make/model, it just doesn't make sense. (not that I'm comparing dogs to cars, it's just an analogy.)

    I understand what you're saying and of course there are no guarantees, but when it comes to individual dogs and referrals among friends a recommendation to a breeder after your dog had some major problems just does not make sense.
    Kate
    Baloo - 5 year old black lab
    Peanut - 7 year old minpin
    Monster - 3-ish year old frenchie/jack, rescue
    We're Superdogs!


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    HersheyK's Dad's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by WigWag
    ... because you know of one dog with a problem especially such a minor one.
    ...
    Okay, 'such a minor one.' Such a minor one is finding a tick or fleas on the pup the day you bring it home, having kennel cough on arriival, the vet finding a staph infection the next day on first examination. Losing 8 teeth by 9 months of age is not life threatening, is not subjected to a life of pain from hips or elbows, is not going blind at a young age, but is also not minor.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    labby's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: Hershy Kisses - question about dental issues?

    Amen Sharon. I think people see we do clearances and that means they will never have a problem with their dog. How I wish. Even two cleared animals can and do produce problems. Its what the breeder does when they do produce a problem is what makes them reputable or not. Notice I said DO PRODUCE A PROBLEM. We all do. We try not to, but we're dealing with genes.

    After all these years, there is still a 1 in 10 chance of your puppy having CHD. This is with the parents cleared. Its greater if the parents are not cleared. Sometimes its like shutting your eyes and picking a puppy then praying a lot. It happens.

    As to not recommending a breeder because they produced a problem....you're going to run out of breeders to recommend. EVERY breeder has or will produce a problem. If someone says they haven't, then they're lying or haven't been breeding long enough.

    One of my puppy buyers has 3 dogs from me. The first one was a genetic nightmare. I paid off on the contract when the problem became apparent. I apologized and offered my knowledge in how to take care of that dog. We got the dog stabilized and the dog is/was an awesome waterfowl retriever. Since he has some issues, they don't use him during upland season. The dog is now 9 or 10 and though he's slowing down, they love him to death. He's an awesome dog that has a problem.

    They understood that I cannot guarantee that they will not have a problem. They have since bought 2 other dogs from me and thankfully neither of those have had issues. They could very well have had problems since they are all related. They understand that sometimes stuff just happens. They recommend me to everyone who praises their dogs' working ability and the way they behave both in the field and around the house, even though their first dog had issues. They tell me that they would have lost out on 2 other wonderful animals if they had held a grudge as others would have done in their place.

    Their son recently got a dog from me and their daughter is on my waiting list.



    Laura





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