Lufenuron for fungal infections (What do you think?)
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Thread: Lufenuron for fungal infections (What do you think?)

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultLufenuron for fungal infections (What do you think?)

    Towards the end of the last round of foot fungal infections, I found this:

    http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...rnalCode=javma

    I asked the vet about it, and that was when he suggested punch biopsy. I don't remember that he ever gave me a really good reason why it would not work.

    What do you guys think? I think 21 days to recovery sounds damn good, cause it took us a lot longer last time. Anyone know of any reason why it would be a bad idea to try this?

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    Time to resolution of lesions in most untreated control animals was approximately 90 days.
    This was also interesting to me...that's about how long Angus took to heal, even with Ketaconazole and Maleseb spray. I feel like I might as well have done nothing.

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    MidwestGirl is offline Senior Member
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    I would ask your vet again and what exactly is a punch biopsy?

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    YellowJakesMom is offline Senior Member
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    I would think the vet is hesitant treat with Lufenuron without knowing what exactly he's treating. Yes, Alternaria came back on scrapings, but only on Simon, and like you said - it's a ubiquitous fungus so there's no way to be sure if it caused the itching or was simply a contaminant. Were there other scrapings that showed different fungi on both boys?

    Personally I would do a punch biopsy, there are way fewer possible side effects with removing a small chunk of skin than with trying a new drug - you know? That being said, Sentinel is a safe product with minimal side effects.

    Also, I checked Plumb's (5th edition - a veterinary drug handbook) and found this on lufenuron:
    "Lufeneron showed initial promise as a treatment for fungal infections, but initial enthusiasm has dampened somewhat as efficacy appears to be questionable."

    More recent (albeit, in vitro) studies have shown no antifungal effects of lufenuron:
    http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...r.2005.66.1090

    So I don't think it's necessarily the vet saying lufenuron won't work (although it seems like studies are conflicting about its efficacy) so much as a better plan might be to try to definitively diagnose what they have and then treat.

    I'm so sorry the boys and you are going through this

    Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. - Cree prophecy

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    A punch biopsy is where they put the dog under "light" sedation and take a plug from their skin, which is then sent to, in our case, U of Tennessee Vet College for analysis. Supposedly it will ID exactly what it is...but one of the questions I want to ask is how much information it will give us? For example, would it be able to identify if it were caused by an environmental contaminant? Going further, would it be able to narrow down what type of contaminant?

    I guess it would be neat to see one of these reports and see how much detail they give. You know...if it just says, "Yep, this is something they're picking up in the environment..." Well, I don't need to pay $500 for that info. KWIM?

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    YJM, that's interesting about the Lufenuron. Hmmm. I think that study I referenced is about ten years old, so maybe thoughts have changed since then.

    Well, what I did is, I made an appt with my vet for today, without the boys, just to talk through the options. I will definitely report back!

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    YellowJakesMom's Avatar
    YellowJakesMom is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngusFangus View Post
    A punch biopsy is where they put the dog under "light" sedation and take a plug from their skin, which is then sent to, in our case, U of Tennessee Vet College for analysis. Supposedly it will ID exactly what it is...but one of the questions I want to ask is how much information it will give us? For example, would it be able to identify if it were caused by an environmental contaminant? Going further, would it be able to narrow down what type of contaminant?

    I guess it would be neat to see one of these reports and see how much detail they give. You know...if it just says, "Yep, this is something they're picking up in the environment..." Well, I don't need to pay $500 for that info. KWIM?
    Punch biopsies can tell a few different things. They might be able to identify a specific organism. They might be able to tell what type of inflammation is there, which can give a lot of information about causes. But there's no guarantee it will give useful information (that's why I'm always tempted to go straight to a specialist, maybe they've seen this exact thing before since all they see is skin all day long, and know exactly what to do without much more testing). For what biopsies can tell, I'll use the liver as an example, because that's what my Friday exam is about

    Say we have a middle aged female Cocker Spaniel that's got elevated liver enzymes and for whatever reason we might think it has Chronic Hepatitis, or maybe Cushing's Disease. Let's say we can only do biopsies at our clinic to diagnose things for sake of example. If we biopsy and see inflammation with lots of lymphocytes and plasma cells then that would strengthen our suspicion for CH. If we took a biopsy and saw glycogen that would point us more toward Cushing's. (Not that a biopsy would be the first step to diagnose either of those!)

    I hope the vet can help you this afternoon!

    (Here's a sample I found on a quick search, this looks much like what our pathology department produces)

    There are foci of ortho and parakeratosis over an acanthotic epidermis. The papillary dermis is thickened and contains a moderately dense lymphohisyiocytic infiltrate. The etiology of the dermatitis cannot be determined on a histologic basis. The lesion is lichenified. The PAS stain for fungus is negative.

    Note: The lesion is excoriated. Multiple deeper cuts were done.

    Diagnosis: Chronic dermatitis, lichenified. PAS is negative.

    Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. - Cree prophecy

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    that's why I'm always tempted to go straight to a specialist, maybe they've seen this exact thing before since all they see is skin all day long, and know exactly what to do without much more testing
    Yes, that is so true. With people, you wouldn't ask your internal medicine guy to ID your rash. Well, you might, but as you say you'd have better luck with a dermatologist who does nothing but look at skin all day.

    You are so helpful. I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

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    YellowJakesMom is offline Senior Member
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    I hope it's helpful and not annoying I understand the money issues too, with my horse getting sick last weekend money played a huge issue on what we were able to do to help him - it's frustrating to see them hurting and still have to think about the financial aspects.

    Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten. - Cree prophecy

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    AngusFangus is offline Senior Member
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    I'm sorry about your horse. It does suck to have to think about money, but unfortunately none of us are made of dough.

    I adore my vet, but I suspect that this clinic is unnecessarily expensive at times. I hate that it matters, but I just can't see paying almost double for some things. So, that's factoring into this too...with Kevin being out of work for most of this year, I have felt the need to be conservative.

    We went to another vet this year to get the boys' shots/titers/all that jazz. She's still a high-end vet, but even she was literally almost half the cost for the same things.

    Down side: I called a few times to ask questions about the tests, when the results would be in, etc. and no one ever called me back. Once I called to ask her a question, and it was A WEEK later when she returned my call. By then I couldn't even remember what my question was!

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