Breeding or genetic question??
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Thread: Breeding or genetic question??

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    Amber The Duck Dawg's Avatar
    Amber The Duck Dawg is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultBreeding or genetic question??

    I have always heard that dogs from reputable breeders are healthier, could someone give me a link to the studies? I know that hip and elbow clearances are always supposed to be done. The reason OFA came into being was because a certain field trial person noticed that more and more dogs were becoming crippled earlier and earlier, top notch dogs from top notch breeders. Since the rating of hips by Ofa has come into being Excellent ratings have gone from about 10% TO 20% over 25 years. that is a good improvement, but how does it compare well bred dogs vs BYB dogs?
    CNM is another interesting genetic disease, they just recently developed a test for it and traced every dog that is a carrier or affected back to one of 3 dogs. The problem was those were 3 very popular dogs for breeding because they were very good field trial dogs, all the good breeders and trainers wanted one out them, a lot of line breeding and narrowing the genetic pool and there are now thousands of CNM carriers out there.
    EIC is another example of a genetic disease, 40% of all FC/AFC's are either carriers or affecteds. It is very hard to find a good field trial kennel that does not have an EIC carrier in it. You have a much smaller chance of getting an EIC carrier or affected dog if you got one from just a BYB up until a few years ago.
    BYB's have a very large gene pool to draw from because they are idiots and do not limit themselves to just certain dogs/llines. A wider more diverse gene pool always creates a better population, because it is more resistant to disease and enviromental factors.
    What I am looking for are just links to studies that compare health and disease in dogs, not anedoctal evidence.

    Thanks.
    Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat. Females should weigh between 55 and 70lbs and Males between 65 and 80lbs. Height females 21.5 to 23.5 inches males 22.5 to 24.5 inches at the withers.

    Kelly
    HR Greenwoods Sealion Tsunami SH "Wave" born 3-9-2010
    Greenwoods Amber Wave VCD2 RA SH AX OF WCX CGC "Amber" born 4-13-2005
    Chino Ca

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    2labpups is offline Member
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    Interesting points to make. I sent in EIC test for Layla yesterday. I can bet she's affected there as well.
    Gidget, JH, SH on her way to MH
    Layla, CNM AFFECTED, Couch Surfer, Counter Surfer, Trash Can Surfer
    DEMAND OFA, CERF, PRA, CNM and EIC testing from your breeders
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Layla-...6759367?ref=ts


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    labby's Avatar
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    I'm not sure there are studies as to whether "reputable" breeders have less instances of genetic problems than those who do not test. It might be artificially slant in the BYB favor since ignorance is bliss. The "reputable" breeder knows there are problems no matter what they do, the BYB tend to ignore them and consequently can say they've never produced a problem.

    CHD, ED and TVD clearances are phenotype of clearances. That means the dogs do not "show" the problem. It doesn't mean they don't carry it or won't produce it. That's why two OFA Excellents can and do produce dysplastic pups. No breeder with a brain is going to "guarantee" that a puppy they produce won't end up with any of those problems.

    CNM, EIC and PRA are genotype clearances. The genes are identified and either present or not in the dog's DNA. Breeders can "guarantee" their puppies will not have these issues if they breed a carrier only to a clear. If they don't test and breed a carrier to another carrier or Heaven forbid an affected, yes they are going to produced that problem. Since the BYB's don't test for these problems, they can continue to claim they don't have issues or produce problems. A carrier of any of these three problems doesn't bother me. It's knowing the dog is a carrier and then only breeding to a clear.

    It's all in how one looks at things.



    Laura





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    BigBrownDog is offline Senior Member
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    I used to buy into the notion of hybrid vigor and wide gene pools and all that - but in reality what matters is only the individual dogs being bred. If you are a BYB and breed dogs with genetic flaws you will be much more likely to have genetic flaws in the offspring.
    Sharon, Blaise and Diesel.

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    Hybrid vigor only applies to breeding different SPECIES...like a wolf and a dog or a donkey and a horse. It does not apply to breeding different breeds of dogs. They are all the same species.

    But also...just because someone gets a dog from a reputable breeder who does everything in their power to produce sound dogs for themselves and their lines first and for the public second, doesn't account for what happens when said puppies leave the breeder. So much more goes into "crippling" than just getting a dog who's parents are genetically sound. Mother nature is a bitch and nothing is guaranteed...but if you take a puppy and push the puppy at an early age, well, you just created your own issue...the breeder didn't.

    Many people forget to take into consideration their part in the future predictors of the health of their dogs.
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    BigBrownDog is offline Senior Member
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    Here is a link to an article about the Myth of Hybrid Vigor.

    http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/hybridvigor.pdf
    Sharon, Blaise and Diesel.

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    BigBrownDog is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Hybrid vigor only applies to breeding different SPECIES...like a wolf and a dog or a donkey and a horse. It does not apply to breeding different breeds of dogs. They are all the same species.
    Yes - but it's the term people use when talking about mixed breeds (or dogs from differing gene pools) being healthier than those more narrowly bred. I agree with you that the term is not correctly used.
    Sharon, Blaise and Diesel.

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    labby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Hybrid vigor only applies to breeding different SPECIES...like a wolf and a dog or a donkey and a horse. It does not apply to breeding different breeds of dogs. They are all the same species.

    But also...just because someone gets a dog from a reputable breeder who does everything in their power to produce sound dogs for themselves and their lines first and for the public second, doesn't account for what happens when said puppies leave the breeder. So much more goes into "crippling" than just getting a dog who's parents are genetically sound. Mother nature is a bitch and nothing is guaranteed...but if you take a puppy and push the puppy at an early age, well, you just created your own issue...the breeder didn't.

    Many people forget to take into consideration their part in the future predictors of the health of their dogs.
    Absolutely and why I think I'm done "guaranteeing" anything besides general health.



    Laura





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    My breeder's labs are on the "white list" for CNM. You can check registries when looking for a lab. Our girls are out of champion field lines & there are problems in some lines. Besides CNM, her labs are tested for EIC (clear) & PRA, besides the hips & elbows. It takes her a long time to find a sire and even then, her bitch has to be approved before a mating will take place .And she also looks at temperment.
    But that still isn't a guarentee joint problems won't develop from something that happened once they get to their new homes. She told me about not having them run down a hill & not jumping out of our SUV when they are puppies. There are no guarentees that something won't happen, even in the best of breedings. But by breeding labs, free of genetic issues can help rid the breed of some terrible health issues.
    My girls are spayed, I don't breed. I leave that to the experts. But reputable breeders do care about the breed and the health of the litters they produce.
    Here is my breeder's list from the CNM white board.

    You have to click on the white list & then type in Ironweed...to see her dogs names.

    CNM Website
    Last edited by georgie; 12-18-2010 at 06:40 PM.

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    Amber The Duck Dawg's Avatar
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    Hip dysplasia is the incomplete formation of the bone that forms the hip socket, If the hip socket covers the head of the femur completely you get an excellent rating, and not quite covered a good rating, a little less and a fair rating them down to being dysplastic and moderate dysplastic and severly dysplastic for almost no hip socket formed at all. The less socket their is the more pessure and wear there is on a smaller portion of the cartlidge that forms the joint, these changes lead to degenerative joint disease and arthritis of the joint. The amount of bone that forms the joint is purely determined by the genetics of the dog, damage to the cartlidge itself even on an excellent joint can lead to DJD and OA but the bone remains though boney changes can take place such a spurs and surface changes to the bone.
    While a pup is still growing it is possible to damage bone (injury) that can affect bone growth in the future. Growth plate fractures have the capacity to stop any further growth of a bone (long bones in particular , femur, radius, ulna, tibia, fibula).

    certain genetic diseases are limited to lines of dogs and line breeding causes these diseases to pop up or be more prevelant. EIC is so more prevelant in field because certain dogs were breed often and were carriers so now it is common if you have (just as an example) Lean Mac on both sides of your pedigree then your chances are higher of producing an EIC affected dog. Even though Lean Mac was only a carrier every pup of his had at least a 50% chance to be a carrier and when you start line breeding you can easily get carriers of a genetic disease on both sides and end up with an affected. Studies of European roylalty know about the rare genetic diseases that befell many of them because they kept having children by relatives (inbreeding and line breeding). Labs have a very large gene pool compared to some breeds and the smaller gene pool breeds often have huge problems with genetic diseases.
    Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat. Females should weigh between 55 and 70lbs and Males between 65 and 80lbs. Height females 21.5 to 23.5 inches males 22.5 to 24.5 inches at the withers.

    Kelly
    HR Greenwoods Sealion Tsunami SH "Wave" born 3-9-2010
    Greenwoods Amber Wave VCD2 RA SH AX OF WCX CGC "Amber" born 4-13-2005
    Chino Ca

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