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  1. #1
    scutter is offline Senior Member
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    Defaultshutting down

    I have an 18 month old yellow female. I belong to a hunt club and have been training her since she was about 4 months old. We have done a lot of field marks, and she has been in the water. Yesterday we tried to do somewhat challenging marks in the water and she would not retrieve and on the second series finally got to the point to where she would not even step into the water. she sat on the edge of the bank and would not budge. Even when we tried a short mark only about 30 yards she would not budge.

    I have never seen a dog do what she did. What do yo do when a dog shuts down and won't do anything.

    I am very discouraged and considering getting rid of her. It is a long sad story but from the beggining my breeder ripped me off and I don't even know the background of the sire and don't beleive that the breeder evern knows who the sire was.

    Really wonding what to do I now have $2400 in the dog that appears to be virtually useless as a hunting dog

    Thanks

    Benelli's buddy

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  3. #2
    Amber The Duck Dawg's Avatar
    Amber The Duck Dawg is offline Senior Member
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    Is the dog force fetched? Is the dog collar conditioned? Have you done water forcing? Does your dog Handle(3 hand casting etc..)? Almost all dogs refuse at one point or another on a mark the correction is typically a Heel,Nick,Heel with you stepping forward on the heel. then resend after you stop heeling. this only works with a dog that is force fetched and collar conditioned. If your dog handles you can even send it on a "Hot" back comand. Continued refusals then you break things down and make it real simple and direct.
    No Go's are a very common problem with dogs that are still being trained. Typically they happen on new dificult concepts you are teaching a dog or often on dogs that` are just begining the steading process. It is a problem that is easily fixed. Stay ccalm don't get upset and work on a force to pile and establish what you will do on No Go's there and then transfer that to the marks and field. Make it simple.

    I have a feeling this is an owner created problem and without knowing exactly what you did its very hard to tell you exactly how to fix it. I don't even know if your dog wears an e-collar.

    Kelly
    Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat. Females should weigh between 55 and 70lbs and Males between 65 and 80lbs. Height females 21.5 to 23.5 inches males 22.5 to 24.5 inches at the withers.

    Kelly
    HR Greenwoods Sealion Tsunami SH "Wave" born 3-9-2010
    Greenwoods Amber Wave VCD2 RA SH AX OF WCX CGC "Amber" born 4-13-2005
    Chino Ca

  4. #3
    scutter is offline Senior Member
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    We have been training with a club that has some very knowlegable people. Some of the dogs have been at the national masters. I have been training this dog with the group for about 1 yr. So have had lots of input along the way but have also been experiecing lots of challenges with this dog. I took her to someone to force fetch. From My experience she is not fully force fetched but probably about 3/4 force fetched with an ear pinch not an ecollar. I do use an e collar and she is collar condition for heel, here etc.

    Yesterday we had two sets. On the first set we had one land mark which was land only and she has done that probably 100 times. So she had no problem with the land mark. The second mark was on land but the dog had to swim through a pond, cross a gravel road and then go about 5 yards into the field to get the mark. She crossed the road barely went into the field and then refused to go further and started coming back to me. She would not even look at a second hand tossed bird.
    So we brought her back to heel at the side of the pond where she would not even have to go through the water and we tried the mark a second time. She went but at half speed and then broke down immediately when she hit the grass and even when we gave her a second bird she saw where it landed but would not retrieve it. I brought her to the bird made an extremly hard correction to get her to pick up the bird.

    The Last mark was a live flyer. she was at heel and had to swim through some water to get to the live flyer. She picked up the live flyer and brought it back.

    The second set was at a different location now about 3 hours later which included two water marks and one land mark. on the first mark she went out about 20 yards in the water and came back. second mark was on land but had to swim a short distance through water ( about 15 yards) she swam through started into the grass but acted like she got spooked and came right back to me. So I tried again with a double bird and she would not go. I waited about 1 1/2 hour later and again tried the short mark. even with someone throwing a hand mark a short distance she would not budge. she just sat there. there were a few things that she had not seen nor experienced before and admittedly some marks were tough for a jr dog but we had been training with her for a year. She has been making 100 yard marks and retrieves in field work and driving through cover.

    At 18 months and a considerable amount of training, I just don't know that she has what it takes and am uncertain that I want to continue to invest efforts in this dog. I will give it some more time but after a year of training she should be ready for a jr test and running short single marks in land or water.

    Frustrated and discouraged. No she is not handling at all. I am starting to work on steadying and whistle sits.

    Thanks for your reply

    Benelli's buddy

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    I don't really know enough about the situation to venture much advice, but it sounds like hotspotting. Has the dog ever been cold burned/nicked in the water???

    If you belong to a hunting retriever club, head there for help and an evaluation of the dog and trainer.

    Are you following a program? If not, it will be very difficult to evaluate what is causing this, and the cure. Dogs that have been properly introduced to water tend to LOVE water, so I tend to agree with Amber that it is a training issue. I would do whatever it takes to get the dog INTO the water, throw shackled ducks, walk out in the water and call the dog to you, put your spouse on the other side of the water and call the dog back and forth with treats at each end, whatever. Then (in order of most detailed content and highest price to shortest/least expensive) get a copy of Mike Lardy's Total Retriever System, Evan Graham's Smartwork system, Stawski's Fowl Dogs 1 to 3 DVDs, Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock's Basics or Chris Akin's Duck Dog Basic's DVD. Pretend the dog is a puppy, start at the very basic puppy parts of any of the programs and go from there. DO NOT SKIP A SINGLE STEP. That will be the fastest way to get where you want to go. Backing up to go forward is easier than forever patching holes. Your problem is easily fixed, but we don't know enough about what caused it and the dog's foundation (or lack thereof) to give much more advice.
    HRCH Ellie Mae MH CGC
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    scutter is offline Senior Member
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    one thing I forgot to mention/ask. I am thinking that she may be at the start of a heat cycle. She has no discharge but looks like she is starting to get slightly swollen and my intact male is sniffing her a little more than normal. Is it possible that her heat cycle is making her goofy to the point of completely shutting down

    Thanks

    zoey and benelli's buddy

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    Some dogs get squirrels in thier heads before they go into heat, and others do not. Mine acts like a nut 2 weeks before she starts, and then trains like a champ once we see discharge. Others cannot be trained during thier heat cycles, although in my opinion this is rare. So, could be, but I still would tend to think the no-go is an artifact of something that happened in training.
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    scutter is offline Senior Member
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    She has been in the water quite a lot and loves bumpers in the water. I am beginning to believe that she does not take pressure well without shutting down. Yesterday was the first outright refusal that I have ever had. We have spent time in the water and she loves the water but she does not like to be forced to do anything and it seems to take a lot of force to make her do particular things. I have been talking with my club and looking to them for guidance. The president who has years of training, judging, mh dogs etc says that he would not encourage someone to give up on a dog but beleived that this dog does not have the natural drive and instinct that my ohter dog has and that I will need to continue to fight her through training to get her to move forward. She seems that when she decides not to do something, she is defiant and it take an extreme amount of pressure to get any type of compliance.

    Thanks


    Zoey and benelli's buddy

  10. #8
    Amber The Duck Dawg's Avatar
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    because of your use of collar conditioning to now any correction with it she has solved by coming in to you, If you attempted to use it to get her to fetch and she came back to you she was trying to do the right thing!

    1 You may have to wait till she comes out of heat and has brains again
    2 you need to finish the force fetch process
    3 you need to teach her that coming back without a bird is not acceptable, since the ecollar hasn't been used with the force fetch yet you need to use what she understands and take her by collar and pinch her ear till she is wanting to get back out to the mark and bring back bird. You cannot use the collar for this because she has not been taught how to turn of the collar in this situation yet, to her an ecollar nick in the field means to get back to you right now and that is the exact opposite of what you want.
    4 teach force to pile....This is where you teach her how to turn of the e-collar by going to the bumper and fetching it.
    5 teach a remote sit on whistle, and then if she starts to come back or will not look at birdboy/helper just sit her and wait while the birdboy gets her attention.
    6 use the lowest correction with a collar. and only for known commands.
    7 patience is one of the best tools you have when training a dog. Often it is better to get a bunch of small improvements then to try and get one big change all at once.
    Last edited by Amber The Duck Dawg; 07-12-2010 at 10:30 AM.
    Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat. Females should weigh between 55 and 70lbs and Males between 65 and 80lbs. Height females 21.5 to 23.5 inches males 22.5 to 24.5 inches at the withers.

    Kelly
    HR Greenwoods Sealion Tsunami SH "Wave" born 3-9-2010
    Greenwoods Amber Wave VCD2 RA SH AX OF WCX CGC "Amber" born 4-13-2005
    Chino Ca

  11. #9
    scutter is offline Senior Member
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    first of all thanks for responsding and giving me some help
    the only collar correction I am making currently is with heeling. she already knows heel and I use the collar corretion to keep her into a propery heel condition. Heel then a low level correction until she gets into position then release the correction then a good girl.
    I have sever arthritis and two artificial hips and stiff back and neck etc so I wanted someone else to teach FF. The person did not finish the ff to the point where we have good compliance. the dog tries to avoid pressure not comply with pressure. On saturday she came back volunarity, I did not use any collar correction she came back on her own without a bird. so I moved closer and tried a new mark and she began to break down and stop the retrieve so a second bird was hand thrown to try to get her to finish the retrieve. at that point she refused and came back to me so I took her to the bird and after considerable struggle finally got her to pick up the bird

    Yes I will have to try to finish the FF on my own and incorporate the collar into the FF. It is hard for me to do an ear pinch in the field and make a correction so having the ability to use the collar would help me.

    Force to the pile makes perfect sense and somethig that I have not yet incorporated but will do so after we get the ff with collar corrections.

    we are working on remote sits and have been for about 4 months We are gradually getting further away from her on the remote sits I am also trying to steady her on the sit if she moves and comes back to me then I take her back and we try it again if I catch her moving I say sit nick sit

    It is a long story but I have tried to be patient as she is now 18 months old and the breeder ripped me off as the sire and dam that she showed me and gave me papers on were not the sire and dam that ended up on her akc papers. I don't believe that the breeder even knows who got to the bitch and just came up with a name for the akc papers. which was not the same sire that she showed me and gave me the pedigree on. The dog has had issues as she tore the siding of off my garage and ate a rock and had emergency surgery I have construced a concrete floor kennel so that she can not eat the garage nor any rocks. I keep working with her and doing everything that I know to do but she is a challenge and I am not sure that she has the natural drive nor ability to make a hunter. I am a novice trainer and she has been a handful. I belong to a club that helps but I don't believe that I had the raw talent to work with from the begining. I am not quite ready to give up on her but getting pretty close

    Thanks

    Zoey and Benelli's buddy

  12. #10
    Amber The Duck Dawg's Avatar
    Amber The Duck Dawg is offline Senior Member
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    Since you just want a hunting dog, how does she like live shot flyers? how does she do on the short 30-50 yard marks? How does she do on quartering? Do you do upland hunting? Do you shoot from a blind? If she has the desire to get the birds everything else is a result of training.
    You may have to pay a trainer to finish the force fetch if you can't do it yourself. A good pro should be able to finish the force fetch in a month or 2 at the most. You should be able to get a pro to give you a free evaluation of your dog. Check out sevearl pros and spend a day with each before you decide.
    Light, "weedy" individuals are definitely incorrect; equally objectionable are cloddy lumbering specimens. Labrador Retrievers shall be shown in working condition well-muscled and without excess fat. Females should weigh between 55 and 70lbs and Males between 65 and 80lbs. Height females 21.5 to 23.5 inches males 22.5 to 24.5 inches at the withers.

    Kelly
    HR Greenwoods Sealion Tsunami SH "Wave" born 3-9-2010
    Greenwoods Amber Wave VCD2 RA SH AX OF WCX CGC "Amber" born 4-13-2005
    Chino Ca

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