Good evening and Happy New Year!
Here's pic of the "fan favorite" in the litter. I'd really appreciate your opinions ie: bone, angulation, topline.. what stands out as good/bad. I'm up on the fence.. I'll be hanging on to her a while longer; but I'm not convinced she's here to stay. She is a sweetheart, but it takes more than that to make it in the ring.. :-).
Let me know what your thoughts are on her.
Two other breeders came and went over the litter; after thoughtful examination we all agreed she was the best mover and overall balanced. There was a disagreement whether she was a little bit straight in the rear...
I guess I'm just not convinced...
ps: I had to crop the picture to cut my head out..
I don't think she's particularly lacking in rear angulation at this age and from this particular photo. I still think she looks quite a bit "stuffier" than her siblings through her neck, but overall, it looks like you have a pretty nice litter here.
~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~
"The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon
IMO, two big problems that are haunting the breed today are bad fronts and hocks and they are extremely difficult to improve upon. The reason I might not give this girl the nod is because she is fairly straight in the front (hence the sloping topline), and judging from the pics (which is hard), she seems to be almost sickle hocked. She seems to have difficulty setting her hocks vertically in every pic you sent and believe me, that is not something you want to set into your line. Croup could be better too.
Overall, she is a nice puppy with decent type and seems to have good coat. Take another look at those hocks before making your decision. When I am stuck deciding, I ask myself if the puppy is better than her dam. If she is not, then there may not be much sense in keeping her, depending on your goals.
To err is human:To forgive, canine."
Excellent post dana! I personally would not want to run on that front because she is so straight there...and that is a problem in the breed and I wouldn't want to add that to my breeding program if mom has a better front, etc. As far as the hocks go, I can't tell based on the pics. If she stands like this naturally then that would be a two strikes for me.Originally Posted by FallRiver
Any pics of the one I liked? #2 Black? How about a pic of #4? I would love to see what you said was roach backed. He didn't look that way to me in his 6 week pic.
He didn't look roached to me either Peggy, which is why I thought it was weird.
I prefer the others listed in the other post. In my opinion, you have to be sure what you want to sacrifice just to keep a particular color and sex. Might be a better idea to keep just the best puppy, I think you will get where you want to go faster that way, rather then settling.
By straight front, do you mean lack of chest protrusion. If so, I dont know if you can really tell by the pic since its taken at a bit of an angle from behind. Also, can someone explain what may be the problem with the hock.
A straight front refers to the degree of layback at the scapula. Ideally, the scapula should be at a 45 degree angle from horizontal and a 90 degree angle from the upper arm and the upper arm should be nearly the same length. A straight shoulder is not to be confused with lack of forechest which is the protrusion of the sternum.
The first rear is a pic of a sickle hock
If you look at the other puppies, they have no difficulty setting their hocks vertically.
I was also surprised about the roach back. Having said that, a male must be absolutely spectacular to keep or you must have a place for him in your program as very few get used.
To err is human:To forgive, canine."
I truly respect and value your opinion. I know what you're referring too.. and I too see it. I really think that part of the problem is me stacking the puppy. I attached a picture of Sunday night when the two breeders came, and she looks like a different puppy. Maybe who's stacking the puppy at this point makes a big difference. What do you think?
I will post updated pictures of #4 when we get back from outside. I was suprised to find out that he was roached because I truly like everything about him... he in my eyes is the best puppy of the litter.. and I would keep a male if I had to.
In non technical terms, what does ''roached'' entail.. that term is new to me and had never run across it. I spoke to a few other breeders who have not examined the puppies about it and to their knowledge, a dog that's roached you would see it when stacked..? If you were to go down the back of it.. what would it feel like in your opinion? I just played around with that boy for a while I just don't see it in his topline when he's moving around...
I'm going by what two breeders I respect have told me about it; but I have no knowledge about it. I'll definetly be educating myself about before I ''write him off'' alltogether. Any info will be greatly appreciated.
Dana: Thank you for your last post. I love the images that you have brought in to back up your information. I understand what you mean about sickle hock. What do you think about the last picture of the same girl I posted? Now the hocks are better positioned; overall she looks nice... but in a much more critical eye, it may throw something else off balance... Your thoughts?
I prefer not to fuss too much with puppies when stacking...a well put together puppy will stand four square all on his own and they seem to stand out pic after pic. Look at your black girl standing naturally and see where she likes to set her hocks. Most importantly, watch her move and look for drive and look to see that she actually has movement in the hocks...this is the best way to know.
A roached topline can often be seen in field labs. A lab's back should be level right to the tail and a dip or a roach (spine curves upward close to the pelvis), are not desirable. Your boy has a lovely topline and from the pics I don't see any hint of roaching. Typically, a dog who roaches is often long in the body (he is not) and has an improper pelvic angle (which he does not...it is tipped slightly posteriorly but not bad). Dogs with HD will often roach too in an effort to put more weight on their front but that's just an FYI and not the case likely with this puppy.
Roached backs don't just happen, they are the result of incorrect structure somewhere else and from the pics, it is hard to see that the male has any semblance of roaching or any problems elsewhere that would cause it. He is very short backed and has sufficient reach of neck, so I don't know where the roaching would come from. Short backs and good reach of neck usually mean angulation is good. Compare his topline to #1 and you will see that her topline appears much longer than his...that is because her shoulders and front assembly are too far forward and because her pelvis is tipped posteriorly. When looking at puppies, silhouette and balance are very important considerations. Here is a good little page that might help you:
Looking at those puppies, you can see that the first one has a pelvis that is more level whereas the second one's pelvis is tipped backward or posteriorly. Your #1 girl has a bit of a tipped pelvis and that is why her croup is a tad sloping.
To err is human:To forgive, canine."