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Thread: the perfect lab

  1. #11
    CaliforniaLabLover's Avatar
    CaliforniaLabLover is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Quote Originally Posted by mb05j
    what about ch. aquarius centercourt delight? What about him made him a winner? By the way, when I searched for this picture, I found out that Buzz is going for his junior hunter title.
    Buzz is a nice enough boy, I mean he had to be to win not only multiple all-breed BIS's but also multiple Best In Specialty Shows (including the Potomac), the latter of which means a lot more to me as far as depth of a dog's qualities. No dog is without their faults, though, and with Buzz, while having never seen him in person myself, I've heard his front and his coat are his faults. He certainly seems to be a good producer, though, while I think in speaking with a well-known breeder-judge from back east about him, she mentioned that she thinks his grandkids are quite a bit "better" than even his offspring. She mentioned that seems to hold true with one of her own stud dogs, as well.

    And I definitely agree about JP's veteran boy- absolutely stunning!

    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

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  3. #12
    Canyon Labradors's Avatar
    Canyon Labradors is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    For me, it's this:


    But then again I am biased.

  4. #13
    meandclint is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    I was speaking about the "perfect" dog in looks only aka phenotype. Of course there is so much more that goes into a "perfect" stud for example. You have to look at temperament and soundness and everything in between. Yes a dog and/or line that produces certain desirable qualities consistently gets closer to perfection.

    Buzz was a showman! He was a force to be reckoned with in that ring and would stand four square and smile and wag with his head held high and then move with an attitude that made everyone stop and stare. Yes he has faults but to see him in the fur is very different than seeing him in a photo. The same was true of Tabatha's Rollick at Carrowby "Aaron" who was #1 before Buzz and also another black male Joy showed whose name is escaping me - they were dogs that you saw photos of and said "What's so special?" and then when they came in the ring it 's like "Oh now I see!!!" Aaron was spectacular - he commanded such attention.

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  6. #14
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Its subjective. Perfection is unattainable.


  7. #15
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Quote Originally Posted by WigWag
    Buzz was a showman! He was a force to be reckoned with in that ring and would stand four square and smile and wag with his head held high and then move with an attitude that made everyone stop and stare. Yes he has faults but to see him in the fur is very different than seeing him in a photo.
    That's exactly what I have heard- that it is hard to take your eyes off of him because he was simply such a showman that everyone else looked like an amateur. LOL I think that is probably what the appeal is with that Nick dog from WA, too. I've seen him several times now at shows, and he is a fantastic showman (probably the reason behind so many BIS's). Unlike Buzz, though, I absolutely cannot see him doing well at specialty shows, though. It is interesting what starts the "hype" about certain dogs.

    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

  8. #16
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatyana
    but rather one who can *produce* offspring who remain consistent in breed type, conformation, trainability, temperament, and athleticism (not necessarily in that order)
    Great point. The last dog in my thread sired 139 titled offspring and the number is growing each year; of those dogs 9 have 10 national wins at least and I am sure this number will grow as well; also two OTCH dogs and if I have anything to do with that number, it will grow as well
    Yup but his conformation is dreadful. His head lacks stop for starters. He'd be laughed out of the conformation ring. *note this is a conformation subforum*

    MB05J apart from the dogs that Tatyana posted, get a load of the beautiful back ends on most of the dogs posted. The Aquarius dog lacks turn of stifle but is still fairly nice in the rear end. Overall a nice dog.

    Looking at what you consider the perfect dog to me is looking at the dog itself. We all know that sometimes the more ordinary dogs are the better producers.


  9. #17
    Tatyana is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Yup but his conformation is dreadful. His head lacks stop for starters. He'd be laughed out of the conformation ring. *note this is a conformation subforum*
    Maxx had great conformation; I've never seen him in real life but have seen him in a video in addition to photos. He had enough substance to go through anything, enough angles front and rear to give him efficient movement, well-balanced, good reach of neck, tons of muscle, great otter tail. He does not lack a stop but has a "slight" stop; just what the AKC standard used to call for before it was changed to "moderate" stop and what many old Labradors had. He was not only a great competitor, he was his owner's hunting dog and a buddy. His owner told me that he was a once in three lifetimes dog.

    As far as laughing out of the conformation ring, maybe if the conformation ring was full of rude people such as yourself it would be a possibility; thankfully, I've met more nice people than rude at shows. As far as this being a "conformation" subforum, retrieving ability is part of the standard for a Labrador Retriever. So, are you saying that we cannot mention retrieving as part of conformation? As Julie and Sharon said, there are many things, such as phenotype, genotype, temperament, retrieving ability which are all part of a dog's conformation. If you start to compartmentalize and separate looks from performance, you lose what this breed is supposed to be.

  10. #18
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    windycanyon is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Oh Tatyana.... I'm sorry, but having come from field lines myself, I really couldn't disagree w/ you more strongly on this one. If you look at the labs from the olden days, you have to see how lacking in angles they are, particularly the fronts. The breed has come a long way, and though some of us may feel the winningest show dogs are a bit "overdone", I do have a great appreciation for the structure of the current dogs posted here. I've battled fronts myself and it's a long struggle to improve despite having come from the old Hiwood lines (which imo, were very nice field dogs esp for their time). Balance balance balance. You do NOT see that in most FT dogs. Sorry but fronts (esp) are sorely lacking. Many are very long backed as well, and that is something that has also taken me a long time to correct. Heads are fortunately pretty fast to correct. If you dont' have a copy of the LRC Illustrated standard, it's a great resource as it shows what is correct vs what is not. -Anne

    PS Tried to post just the photo but it wouldn't allow me-- This dog (Bandit) is my idea of perfection from the total package standpoint, though wouldn't be "enough" dog for most breeder/judges today unfortunately. I bred to him twice in the past 2.5 yrs... got temperaments to die for, great work ethic, intelligence, structure, and oh... health. He's 14, in great health and still breeding naturally. Both of my breedings were via chilled semen/AI and resulted in 8 and 7 pups, respectively-- almost a "miracle" if you ask a repro specialist (esp since the first was w/ a 6yo bitch). And he's a 3xCH, 2xMH, has a great OFA record, is PRA cleared by virtue of parentage, etc etc. I will have to watch size w/ future breedings though since his mom was very little. http://www.janrod.com/bandit.htm


    WindyCanyon Girls, August 2014

  11. #19
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    Fallriver is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    I agree with Anne completely. These dogs may fill your eye completely and you may love the type and that is great...but that does not mean they are correct according to the standard. I love a looking at a bit of a dished face myself, but I know it is incorrect so I try not to select for it. Many breeders who have been involved for years still have trouble recognizing good fronts...good dogs are not as easy to evaluate as one might think and they are even harder to produce...and evaluating and producing type can be even more complicated.
    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
    - Anonymous

  12. #20
    Tatyana is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: the perfect lab

    Balance balance balance. You do NOT see that in most FT dogs.
    I would disagree with this. MRW pointed, when talking about balance in one of her books, that the balance should be skewed a bit in favor of hindquarters to sink the dog's rear a bit more than it's head in the water which would make it easier for a dog to swim especially with a bird in its mouth. I've seen many field trials dogs that are balanced that way. I see almost opposing in the show ring with balance skewed towards the front with big heads, necks, keels, barrel chests. If you add a 5 pound bird to that, then the dog's front really goes out of balance with its rear and the dog has to spend more energy working its front legs in the water helping keep its head above the water. What MRW said makes sense to me and not the opposite.

    As far as angles. I can see the difference of course between the Labs of the past and present day. However, the interpretation of "correct" changed over the years as the first two dogs that I posted the photos of were show champions in their day. Compared to the dogs of today, they are "lacking" in angle. But I don't look at them in that way; I don't compare form to form. I look at their function and they had enough angles to function; if they had enough angles to function, it means to me that those angles were correct for that function.

    In addition, the field trial dogs with "incorrect" angles are not kept in a protective cocoon for 2 years with no forced exercise and somehow their "incorrect" angles don't make them break down structurally as many are running Derbies and then go on to run field trials until they are 10+ years old. How come "incorrect" angles can hold up to rigors of exercise from young age well into senior years but we need to protect "correct" angles by requiring no forced exercise until 2 y.o. and then how many 10+ year olds are running Master? It just does not add up.

    We're at the point now where "correct" dogs cannot do agility anymore because of all the zig-zagging movement that is bad for their joints. Most obedience people who want a Lab go for an "incorrect" field dog. Hunt tests are dominated by "incorrect" substandard field dogs as well. I think there are only two local hunting guys who have show Labs and one is selling his Lab and replacing her with GWPs; the other gets teased for hunting with a polar bear (don't know how long he'll last until he replaces his dog). Yes, there some show dogs who can hunt, do obedience, agility, hunt test, but compared to the total number of show Labs out there, it's a small number. People prefer "incorrect" and substandard Labs for a reason: their form follows function even if it's not the form that wins in the ring.

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