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Thread: What makes a "Winner" ?

  1. #11
    CaliforniaLabLover's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Okay, I just did a bit of "in-depth" research and found a little bit better (still not great) photos of the 2 dogs in question...the yellow still doesn't have a great pose, since it is a casual pool-side photo, but I still think that the yellow exudes breed type much more than the chocolate, even though the choco seems to have all of the right things in the right place. Even with the bad angle on the first set of photos posted, to me the yellow has more substance, coat, and overall breed type. He does look a little weak in the pasterns. Thoughts? ???





    (again, still not the best photos...)

    Would it make any difference that I also found out in my research that the yellow took an open yellow class under Lisa Weiss and one of his majors under Beth Sweigart? Perhaps I'm still delusional, but having watched what both judges put up, I think this is also significant being that they're both considered breeder-judges.

    So anyhow, ZRL, I still agree with you and think you probably know more about this than you think you do. It all depends on the judge, though...sometimes the best dog according to you or me may not be the best dog according to the judge or others (as is obvious even just in this thread). It doesn't mean that you're wrong or right, just that you have a different opinion of a particular class than others. That's the point of what everyone is saying, I think.
    I'm new, and tend to hang out watching all of the classes much more at specialty shows than all-breed shows, which may have something to do with what I would pick as more "typey."


    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

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  3. #12
    Fallriver's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Sadly, sometimes you have to factor in politics and face judges too.
    On top of that, I have had breeder judges put my dogs up and tell me how much they love them, then I would seek them out, show to them again and get totally dumped ;D
    Some judges are bigger on movement than others and some reward generic gait and structure more than lab gait and structure.
    Some judges look for attitude and IMO sometimes give it too much consideration. Who knows? It's fun to try to guess what judges are looking for but in the end, sometimes they prolly even don't know and are just going on gut feel.
    In the end, if you look at a judge's final lineup and they are consistent in type and build, then they have probably done a decent job, whether we agree with them or not and we know whether we have the type of dog they are looking for. I thoroughly enjoyed showing to the Hopkinsons last month as you could tell what they were looking for and they were consistent in their pics IMO.
    Good job on the research and finding those dogs...you should be an investigative reporter 8)
    Dana


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  4. #13
    CaliforniaLabLover's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    It is amazing how easy it can be to find photos once you know the names. Thanks, though, and thanks for your insight.

    I agree with the consistency concept...I have seen some judges that, after the first 2 classes, you will basically know exactly what s/he will be putting up the rest of the day. And others where even after Breed, it leaves you scratching your head. Those are probably more of the "gut instinct" judges? The others, even if they like a very different labrador, if the judging is consistent, it makes a lot more sense to me that *that* is what they like.

    I also agree with the politics sometimes, too. I have had a well-known breeder down here come up to me after a day of showing and mention to me that the entire reason they hired a particular handler for the winning dog is because he only needed one more major (he was finished that day) and they knew that the judge would put that handler up, regardless of what was on the end of the lead. As it ended up, that same handler won not only WD but also RWD (with an assistant in the WD class), WB, and BOB with a special she was showing. Amazing to watch it unfold. Granted, they were nice dogs, but as the breeder mentioned to me, the WD was very skinny and out-of-coat, and they then said something that will stay with me the rest of my life: "Someday you'll find yourself in a situation as well where you didn't deserve a win." Very cool people to talk to, and a very, very good lesson.

    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

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  6. #14
    Fallriver's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Very cool story!
    A CH in some parts can be very elusive and sometimes you just have to do what it takes...if you don't, somebody else will and you'll be left behind.
    It drives me nuts how easy it is to get a CH up here in Canada...I hardly ever show my young dogs in all breed for fear they will finish and it can and does happen in a single weekend. I like to prep puppies at all breed shows before I go away to specialties. I did this with Chili and BAM, 5 point major. I waited a couple of months until we were going to the next specialty, entered her again and all breed and WAM, 4 point major. At this point, you have to pull enties, otherwise your 7 month old puppy will attend his next specialty as a special :
    This was especially bad when I was in Nova Scotia where there wasn't a lot of depth in the entries. Conversely, it is embarrasingly easy to boost points with your own entries if you need that incredibly stupid major whereby you have to beat all of two dogs. After you are reeling from that huge win, you can single out by beating only one other dog (who could easily be your old fat dog who sits on the couch).
    Then I travel half an hour across the border and suddenly I need to beat 40 dogs for a major Chasing majors in some areas can be an incredible ordeal with a lot of travel involved and a lot of wasted entries on broken majors. Out of the frying pan and into the fire!!!
    You can seriously finish a good dog in parts of Canada for about $150. In some parts of the US, it can cost well over $10,000. I don't know which is worse : ;D
    Dana


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  7. #15
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    I was just talking about Canada with one of my friends. She had her 2 y/o boy (who is doing good in the states) up there with a handler/friend, and he ended up short about 4 points for his Can. Ch. So they are going up this weekend as well. After she told me about it, it sounded alot like UKC here in the states. As you mentioned, it's easy to boost the competition with your own entries. With UKC, you can get all the points you need by just entering enough times, but you need competition wins where you beat another dog. I know a gal around here who had to stop showing UKC for awhile because all of her dogs were up to a point where they were CH. and up against each other all the time.

    When I look at the 2 photos, I can see the yellow winning for sure under breed judges and at specialties. I can see the chocolate winning at all breed shows under Sporting Dog judges. The choco is nice and lean, and what many Sporting judges are looking for, as they too often think that the breed tends to run heavy.

  8. #16
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYNLABS
    When I look at the 2 photos, I can see the yellow winning for sure under breed judges and at specialties. I can see the chocolate winning at all breed shows under Sporting Dog judges. The choco is nice and lean, and what many Sporting judges are looking for, as they too often think that the breed tends to run heavy.
    I think you're right in that the choco would do better under all-breed judges, but it isn't even the "nice and lean" that gets me...he has very little bone, not much "substance" (I'm not talking fat here...I'm talking muscle mass such as 2nd thigh), and a rounded croup/low tailset. Even all-breed judges seem to go for at least a nice straight topline and good tailset? All-in-all, I think that the photo of the choco that I found actually portrays his front in a much better fashion.

    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

  9. #17
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FallRiver
    You can seriously finish a good dog in parts of Canada for about $150. In some parts of the US, it can cost well over $10,000. I don't know which is worse : ;D
    I agree totally! It happens in the field events too. For example, I saw this one entrant's vehicle filled with custom ribbon stickers and when I finally got around to asking him about them, one of the things he said is that for every one of those ribbons he most likely spent at least $1,000 (since he runs in MN, which is typically harder than elsewhere, at least so I hear). I found that intersting, but when I realized it, he was exactly right- especially in certain parts or states of the country. So, if I add it up, our JH will have cost at least $4,000 by the time we are done and I've heard of some FCs costing about $100,000 by the time they are done- not for the faint of heart, lol. However, in some/other parts of the country, it may only take a few trials to obtain an FC, making it much lighter on the pocket book. Very interesting for sure...
    Darcy Litzinger
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  10. #18
    ZRL
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaLabLover
    Quote Originally Posted by CYNLABS
    When I look at the 2 photos, I can see the yellow winning for sure under breed judges and at specialties. I can see the chocolate winning at all breed shows under Sporting Dog judges. The choco is nice and lean, and what many Sporting judges are looking for, as they too often think that the breed tends to run heavy.
    I think you're right in that the choco would do better under all-breed judges, but it isn't even the "nice and lean" that gets me...he has very little bone, not much "substance" (I'm not talking fat here...I'm talking muscle mass such as 2nd thigh), and a rounded croup/low tailset. Even all-breed judges seem to go for at least a nice straight topline and good tailset? All-in-all, I think that the photo of the choco that I found actually portrays his front in a much better fashion.
    It might help to know that the judge that put up the chocolate also judged the sporting group...so not a lab-specific judge on that day.
    Zeke RN, agility miscreant and CGC failure

  11. #19
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Well then, it must be the legs. The judge was either female and knew that handler would kick her butt if she didn't put her dog up or was male for obvious reasons
    Just one more reason to work out
    Dana


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  12. #20
    ZRL
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    DefaultRe: What makes a "Winner" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FallRiver
    Well then, it must be the legs. The judge was either female and knew that handler would kick her butt if she didn't put her dog up or was male for obvious reasons
    Just one more reason to work out
    Exactly my thinking, the handler was able to do a beat down if she needed. :P (judge was an elderly lady)
    Zeke RN, agility miscreant and CGC failure

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