What are your thoughts on Prelims? Do any of you that breed breed your dogs on prelims before age 2? If a puppy buyer is looking at kennel, what would prelims matter? Isn't it more for the breeder to know if the dog is turning out right... It came up on another board I frequent, and my thoughts were that prelims were really only for the breeder to evaluate their dog. And then someone I know who is new in the breed about to take their first shot at a litter is breeding on prelims. I thought that was generally discouraged?
I know a number of reputable breeders who will breed to a stud dog on prelims, but won't breed females on prelims. A stud dog doesn't have to be mentally mature enough to nurse and care for puppies...he just has to be "mature" enough to (ahem) do the deed.
Prelims are also potentially a good way to be able to have a "paper trail" for a dog having normal elbows, etc., in case of an injury, etc. before they are 2 and before they are taken in for final OFA results. That way, if a dog gets normal results on prelims and abnormal results for final OFA rads at age 2, such as an FCP that wasn't there at a year- people may feel better about taking a chance with a breeding, that this is a result of an injury (especially if the prelims are on record as being normal). Does that make any sense at all?
~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~
"The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon
Well, it's true that some breeders will breed on pre-lims but I wouldn't. There have been too many cases where a dog pre-limed okay and didn't get final clearances. In my opinion it is irresponsible.
It's interesting to me that breeders are constantly bashing back yard breeders for breeding dogs without clearances but will do it themselves. To me, this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do".
Personally, I don't care if the dog has been pre-limed, or what it's background is, breeding before final clearances is something that I have absolutely no interest in.
Some breeders breed on prelims - but as the previous poster mentioned - more studs than bitches. A bitch has to be physically/mentally mature to bear and care for puppies. That is why two is a minimum and with some I would wait until 3. If a stud comes back prelim excellent at 18-20 months I may take a chance on him depending on the cirumstances. If the prelims were a good at 9 - 12 months I would wait until finals were done.
Personally, I do prelims more for agility than breeding purposes. I want to know if there's anything there that would keep me from letting them jump. Before prelims, they only do jumps a few inches off the ground if at all. I don't actually send the xrays into OFA, I trust the radiologist at MSU...finals go to OFA.
I haven't bred a litter yet, but if all bitches are like Piper, I have no idea why someone would think they're mature enough to whelp/raise a litter at 18 months... I'll be lucky if she's there in another year or two
I see the point on the dog and also for getting the records on file in case of injury. I totally agree about the maturity thing. Nicole, Grace sounds like Piper. While she is 15 months now, I can't even imagine what another 9 month will do for her...she's almost worse now than when she was a little puppy...All beauty NO brains.
I just don't see why people would breed their female on prelims. I have heard of people doing it because the bitch will be going into heat a few months before OFAs can be formally done, and they can get her bred this time around. WHY?? What's waiting another 6-9 months. The bitch will only have 2-3 litters tops, why rush the whole thing?
I guess that's why there is a difference between those with a love for the dog and those with a love for the money.
I would personally not breed a bitch under 2 years old and I have not bred on prelims and have no plans to do so however I also do not see any reason not to use a stud dog that is under 2 years old and has prelims with a sound pedigree and is a dog that for some reason you really want to use at that time. Also a bitch can be over 2 years old and still be bred based on prelims in some circumstances ie the bitch had prelims done at 18 months and did not have finals done at 24 months or so for some reason and is now in season and is 2 1/2 - 3 years old.just don't see why people would breed their female on prelims. I have heard of people doing it because the bitch will be going into heat a few months before OFAs can be formally done, and they can get her bred this time around. WHY?? What's waiting another 6-9 months. The bitch will only have 2-3 litters tops, why rush the whole thing?
Dysplasia is a progressive and degenerative condition, however how much and how quickly is all dependent on the individual. Also all other countries in the world x-ray at 12 months or 18 months and the U.S. is the only country with a higher age requirement and yet we do not see less dysplasia. Prelims at 6 months have been shown to change approximately 10% of the time so therefore the odds are good that a prelim accurately depicts what is going on. Also dogs that have final clearances done at 24 months and recieve passing grades can and do go on to develop dysplasia. I know someone personally who was dumbfounded when her 7 year old bitch came up consistently lame and was given out a diagnosis of HD by an orthopedic. She was surprised because she was OFA excellent at 25 months.
To your last point Sharon - the OFA results are good on the day you had those x-rays done. Hardly anyone x-rays again at three, four or five years of age. However, some dogs that clear x-rays at 2 wind up very arthritic or dysplastic later in life. Some dogs that have not cleared elbows never limp a day in their life and are very agile until they die. A friend of mine who breeds Mastiffs was naturally very upset when her boy started limping at three years old - I told her that he may have arthritis in his elbow or maybe has OCD - she got pretty mad at me stating 'but he cleared OFA when he was 2' - so what? Doesn't mean something can't develop later. She took him in to see a specialist - arthritis in his elbow.
Well we have some world renowned kennels up here in canada that breed at 11 months to dogs whose fathers failed ofa, but had prelims.
As newbies, it is very strange and sends a wrong message to me, of course, I wouldn't buy in, but others are more easily fooled. Nice dog or not, I would never go to a BREEDER like that let alone any particular dog.
As for bitches, breeding before two tells me one thing about the breeder, and only one thing $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
Ruby will be two years old next month and holy cow! I can't imagine her having a litter let alone having one now. Lets not talk about my OFA anxiety.
I can guess who the dog's sire is based on the fact that a particular dog from a well known kennel failed his OFA hips last year and he was used quite a bit prior to that based on his prelims. I will point out that he has produced soundly and is from a sound background - three littermates passed and his mother is OFA excellent and sire OFA good. He would be a better choice that breeding to a dog who passed yet has littermates who failed and/or who is producing consistently bad hips. I have a friend who bred to the sire I am thinking of and she kept three littermates and all are OFA good/elbows normal.Well we have some world renowned kennels up here in canada that breed at 11 months to dogs whose fathers failed ofa, but had prelims.I don't think it's a wrong message nor do I think anyone is being fooled. Education is the key for new people such as myself and I try to get it from all walks of breeders. I can learn something from everyone - right, wrong, or indifferent. I try not be so close minded and also I rely heavily on my genetic background and scientific approach. There are those out there that want every clearance in the book - OFA good or excellent and NO FAIR, normal elbows, cleared heart, Optigen A only, cleared thyroid, lips, butts, and toenails too and they are the first to jump on someone for not doing the same and shake their head at someone who breeds a Grade I elbow or even a bitch who has mild HD but many who do make such decisions are equipped with a lot of experience and knowledge. Furthermore many people don't shout out about such decisions so I have laughed inside when listening to a "newbie" go on and on about clearances and how she wouldn't do this or that or breed a bitch or stud who didn't have at least 5 generations of cleared everything when I know that the bitch she co-owns from the breeder she worships is out of a dam who didn't pass her elbows and was first bred at 9 months old! She doesn't know any of this and listens to that breeder who obviously has a "do as I say and not as I do" attitude.As newbies, it is very strange and sends a wrong message to me, of course, I wouldn't buy in, but others are more easily fooled. Nice dog or not, I would never go to a BREEDER like that let alone any particular dog.
Some of the most influential dogs would never have come to be if some breeders didn't weigh out the pros and cons of a future litter and that may have included using a dog that was "iffy" in some people's opinions. You can say any dog might produce this or that if you know enough about the given pedigree.