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Picking a stud

4K views 17 replies 9 participants last post by  JP 
#1 ·
I am sure that the talent for this is in many years of experience, but I was wondering if those of you who breed could share some pointers on what you look for when choosing a stud.

Like do you look for a particular look or characteristic, like a better topline if you want to improve on your girls. Or do you try to find Kennel names the dogs share (granted if you LIKE that look of dog), do you try to get a common dog in their pedigree far back? That kind of thing. Just curious.
 
G
#2 ·
First I look at the dog himself.  I have to really like a lot about him both physically and his temperament - not all dogs are perfect so there may be things that I don't like as well but it's the total package.  I want to see the hallmarks of the breed - pretty head, coat, and tail as well as friendly, outgoing, confident, intelligent, and an avid retriever.  Next I look at the pedigree and make sure it's relatively clean ie nothing too serious up front and center or I won't go there no matter how much I love the dog.  I also look to see what the lines are known to produce  - health issues, temperament, and physical characteristics like good coats and nice heads as well as the negative like not a lot of rear angle, etc.  Again no dog is perfect and no lines are perfect - only throwing the best of qualities with no issues.  And lastly I want to improve on what I don't like about my *****.  She has a bad topline so I want a dog with a rock solid topline and is known to produce that as well.  She also lacks enough coat so I want to make sure I go to a boy who has a lot and is from a family with a lot and throws a lot.  You really need to be honest about what you like and don't like about your ***** and get other's opinions on what to improve as well. 

Some people will pick a dog that hasn't been used much and is kind of an "unknown" and this might work very well for them, however you have to ask around about the dog and find out about his parents and grandparents and also ask other's opinions on him and why he isn't used that much.  Others go to the top dogs from the top kennels that are known to produce specialty winners and this might work well too, however you have to remember that the puppies you see out of such dogs are going to be out of really superior bitches and maybe even linebreeding that you will not be doing when you take your girl to "Mr. Wonderful" so your resulting litter might not include the nexty Potomac winner like his other puppies. 

It's really a crap shoot no matter how much time and energy and research is put into the breeding.  I have seen matches that just click and the stud might not have been a first choice but it worked.  Also I have seen matches made in heaven produce not so angelic looking puppies.  I remember seeing a ***** that I fell in love with - she was oh so perfect.  I found out she was bred to one of my favorite top producing stud dogs - mmmmmmm.  I saw their son and nearly fell over - he was so dog gone ugly!  He was NOTHING like either parent.       

Getting to know a dog and the breeder/owner is invaluable.  People lie all the time.  I have found this especially true about temperament.  That is number one in my book - a bad tempered dog is no good to anyone - breeder, show home, hunter, or pet.  I know what I like and what I want in a Labrador but that may differ from someone else who thinks that "boys will be boys" and so it's okay for males to growl at one another or even go after another dog.  Also many dogs are strict kennel dogs only getting turned out with one or two other dogs that are the same ones for years and then going out to shows in a crate, van, and on a short leash.  I for one do not want to breed to a male like this and some breeders/owners will tell you they are sweet and confident and good retrievers and yet they have no clue.  I also know of a dog that is dog aggressive and he bit my friend's boy and yet the owner advetises him as a "joy to live with" and "excellent temperament", etc.  Yeah right. 

Oh and there are lines I like and dogs I like that I look for in a pedigree, however that is just a start. I look at head's first admittedly and go from there! I also look for dogs with certain pedigrees but I can usually just tell that from when I see the dog. Picking Mr. Right is really tough for everyone.
 
#3 ·
There is no receipt du jour for picking a stud dog, we will all give you conflicting points of view on what we do...LOL. I really urge you to spend some time with your mentor/person who sold you your *****(es) etc and just watch their dogs and decisions. Its hard to find your own footing so quickly and solidly being so new to the fancy so to just say 'you need to linebred' or 'I only pick stud dogs with proper fronts', isn't going to improve your learning curve. YOU need to figure out WHY you want to breed, what SORT of Labrador you are aiming to produce and WHOM you are breeding for(sorta ties into why). Once you figure out who you are and what your ***** needs physically and pedigree wise, it will help narrow down the selection process for you. You need to discover you own comfort zone for choice and what works for you.
My own reasons:
Healthy aged stud dog, producting qualities I want with pedigree compatiable out of outstanding ***** line.
Thats my ideal simplified rational behind what I do or don't here....of course, there are exceptions to the rule also.
Cheers
 
#4 ·
Someone in our club recently mentioned to me that (as kindof a "last step") they put a potential stud dog's pedigree into some computer program to determine a "breeding coefficient." I don't have a clue what it was all about, but it sounded like a way to evaluate the number of times a particular stud/***** comes up in the backgrounds of a "possible breeding." (ie- a way to evaluate line-breeding?)

Interesting to think about all of the things that it takes to decide on a breeding. I don't even have an intact *****, so don't have to worry about it myself for a long time to come, but I find it incredibly interesting how each person picks the "ideal" match for his/her ***** or a particular line to purchase a ***** puppy from that would work well with their stud dog. I love looking through LQ, putting Post-It notes on the pages of dogs that I really love the looks of, and checking into pedigrees... I find that all too-often (a good thing, I think!), they carry many of the same dogs in their backgrounds. :)

What types of things are usually really "dominant" types of traits in others' experiences- for instance, if you have a ***** with a weak topline, do you always make sure you can see progeny of a particular stud dog to make sure they retain his strong, level topline? Or, are you willing, if you like the dog and his topline is beautiful, to take a chance in breeding to him with the hopes that he will improve on the *****'s topline? How many times do you actually see a stud dog passing along its beautiful head or front to his pups? I mean, some of the top dogs out there aren't dogs I would probably ever consider breeding to unless I had a ***** who really, really needed something from that dog. ???
 
#5 ·
What types of things are usually really "dominant" types of traits in others' experiences- for instance, if you have a ***** with a weak topline, do you always make sure you can see progeny of a particular stud dog to make sure they retain his strong, level topline? Or, are you willing, if you like the dog and his topline is beautiful, to take a chance in breeding to him with the hopes that he will improve on the *****'s topline? How many times do you actually see a stud dog passing along its beautiful head or front to his pups? I mean, some of the top dogs out there aren't dogs I would probably ever consider breeding to unless I had a ***** who really, really needed something from that dog.
Some studs are prepotent and others aren't...when looking at a stud, it is so important to see his get from both line breedings and out crosses to see what he is prepotent for. Then you will have an idea of what he will produce. It is hard, because when looking at get, you have to consider the bitches that are brought to him, and many times with lesser known studs, they do not have great bitches brought to them and you have to do some guessing.
IMO, I will pass on a stud if he doesn't have a strong ***** line. There are so many very beautiful dogs out there, but they have relatively weak ***** lines and I don't want to gamble on them as they aren't likely to reproduce themselves. It makes it hard to pass these dogs up, but the pedigree is often what separates a good show dog from a good producer, although there are always exceptions. Some dogs are just breeder-uppers though, and improve on the ***** regardless of what is brought to them. Two quick examples are Arnold and Vinny (RIP) :angel: Look at their pedigrees and it isn't hard to understand why they produce.
I would much rather breed to an good dog with a great pedigree and good dogs behind him that produce what I want, than an excellent specimen who doesn't have what I want behind him.
 
#6 ·
This might be a dumb question, but when does a breeder use an unproven stud? A couple of you mentioned looked at progeny, but at some time someone must take a risk on a stud that no one has ever used before.

Unfortunately my breeder is in another state now that we moved so while I can ask for opinions, she won't know the dogs in my area and I won't be able to go all over the country when looking for a stud. I have seen several nice males locally...titled and so forth. I'll have to see about finding a few people who are breeding chocolates here in CO and befriend them!
 
#7 ·
Although breeders would like to see what the stud is producing first, many will take a chance on an unproven stud. One good reason is because of the stud dog's pedigree. I've seen a few people use a stud dog that maybe they personally didn't like but loved the pedigree and thought it would go well with their bitchs' pedigree. It seems that I've also seen/heard about some breeders wanting to be the 'first' to use the stud dog and hopefully get good pups before the stud dog becomes popular - first on the block syndrome I guess.
 
#8 ·
FallRiver said:
IMO, I will pass on a stud if he doesn't have a strong ***** line.  There are so many very beautiful dogs out there, but they have relatively weak ***** lines and I don't want to gamble on them as they aren't likely to reproduce themselves. 

I would much rather breed to an good dog with a great pedigree and good dogs behind him that produce what I want, than an excellent specimen who doesn't have what I want behind him. 
What exactly does one look for to determine which dog has a strong ***** line ???- in your example of Vinnie or Arnold, would these dogs behind a stud dog's ***** line be considered "strong" based on pedigree alone, since they are known to improve on so many breedings? I'm still trying to get the "terminology" down so that I can listen to ringside conversation with more of an idea of what people are talking about. I have heard several breeders mention that they will often go with a stud dog whose dam was not only an exceptional example, but an easy breeder/whelper as well. Someone mentioned something to me once that if you are looking for a beautiful ***** puppy, really get a good look at the sire's dam. I wonder if this all goes along with the "strong ***** line" thought?

Gosh, this forum is getting great- so many knowledgeable people with so much to share! :D It has seemed so quiet until recently. Good questions and outstanding answers by all! Leaves me with a lot to think about (and probably even more to remember!) LOL
 
G
#9 ·
More thoughts and ramblings.

Well first of all wouldn't everyone love to see a gorgeous boy with a beautiful head, topline, coat, tail, front, bone that is full of retrieving drive and exceptionally sound and to boot he is out of a drop dead gorgeous dam who produced a few champions and his sire is one that is a known producer and the dog himself has produced wonderfully gorgeous dogs with no issues etc etc etc. Well if such a dog existed then that person would make a million dollars a year on stud fees! It's hard to find everything so you have to decide what's important and go from there. You have to know what you won't sacrifice and what you can live with. Some people for example take huge risks when it comes to temperament and soundness and don't lose any sleep. Others just don't know that much about a stud dog and listen to the owner/breeder gush and believe every word which can be true or not so true. I personally want to know the boy pretty well since temperament is so important to me. I also want to know the dogs behind him - maybe not intimately but I want to be able to talk with their breeder about them and if I can't see a lot of the stud's puppies then I want to know about his siblings, half siblings, cousins, etc.

The ***** line is simply the mother's line. You wouldn't want to breed to a boy who is really gorgeous but had an "ugly" mother who didn't produce anything except for him. Chances are you won't get his traits since he's not dominant for them but there are exceptions. Also as mentioned some dogs are that much to look at yet they are great producers while others are absolutely beautiful but do NOT throw themselves on their pups. Some breeders look for such boys since their bitches are oh so nice - they don't want to change anything but instead make more little clones.
 
#10 ·
Two of my more recent breedings were to stud dogs out of a ***** I adore and spent a good amount of time with years ago when breeding a different ***** to another stud dog.  This ***** comes from a strong ***** line and I loved the pedigrees of two of her sons who were sired by a very nice stud dog.  I patiently waited for them to grow up. 

Time will tell if I chose correctly, but I think I did.  I would not have my ***** Skye or my new pup Jammer if I went a different route. 
 
#11 ·
What exactly does one look for to determine which dog has a strong ***** line - in your example of Vinnie or Arnold, would these dogs behind a stud dog's ***** line be considered "strong" based on pedigree alone, since they are known to improve on so many breedings?
You need to look at the bitches and see that they are great specimens, that they produce themselves, and that the bitches behind them produce themselves. Finding a great stud is nice, but the strength always lies in the bitches. You see, bitches have two chromosomes, XX and dogs have an XY chromosome. The ***** will contribute one chromosome and the stud will contribute another.
If you have a daughter from that *****, she will be an XX. One X she will get from her mother and the other she will get from the stud's mother, not the stud (because the stud can only pass the Y chromosome on from his father). The mother in return, will pass on her mother's chromosome, or the chromosome from her father's dam. This is why the ***** line is so important, especially if you plan on continuing that line with nice bitches. This is why breeding up is so difficult and why the best thing you can do is get the best ***** you can afford.
Ballyduff Lark is an excellent example of a great foundation *****. Not only is she behind the Beechcroft lines, she will be found behind the Tabatha lines too as she is the dam of Valleywood Kannonball Kate and grandmother to Tabatha's Valleywood Decoy and Tabatha's Corker O'Valleywood. Certainly the start of two distinct yet very strong ***** lines.
On the Tabatha side, magic happened when Carol Heidl brought Valleywood Decoy to Dickendall Arnold...from that pairing she got Tabatha's Drifter at Dickendall (an incredible producer), and the top producer Tabatha's Dazzle. She used Arnold again on a Corker O'Valleywood daughter (Tabatha's Siren) and produced Tabatha's Rollick at Carowby, another solid producer.
If you look at the successful breeders such as Carol Heidl with her cookie cutter near-perfect black bitches, you will see line breeding and strength of the bottom line at it's best. Go to her site and see the consistency in her bitches and also what breeding to Arnold did for her bitches. On top of that, both Mary and Carol have consistently lovely temperaments in their dogs.
The strength of Ballyduff Lark and her progeny is a large part of what makes studs like Study, Regal Air, Drifter and Sport such strong producers. How can you miss with such dogs? Sadly, there just aren't enough of them.
 
#12 ·
For me selecting a Stud for a female varies greatly to what I want to acheive . Not all breeders look to get champions out of their first , second or third litter . Although you might be tempted to go for that killer breeding and try to get instantanious champions it isnt a sign of a sustainined love for breeding. In my Dictionary a GOOD BREEDER is one which doesnt produce instant champions but someone who works to produce a particular Type of dog (type of his liking ) , breeds to acheive that type and eventually after the hard work gets it right and then gets results . If I ever breed I want to breed a dog which I can love , one which has the topline that i desire , one which has the proportion , substance , reach and bone that i desire , One that meets my expectation on temperament!!! I have been invloved with my family whiich bread primarily GSD's therefore I am A follower of some of the legend breeders in the GSD world and their philosophies such as Mr. Martin from Wienerau kennels in germany .

Some breeders choose between Phenotype and Genotype when they breed not realizing that genotype in return largely depends upon phenotype and the Blood that the dog is carrying . For me the dog is more likely to produce excellent progeny if he himself has top notch blood which has prooved itself over the years . Secondly Get your facts straight , identify the lines you want to work with and irrespective of the fact that the best type of dog with those blood lines hasnt won as much as say a super stud from that region STICK WITH HIM . So basically choose the type of dog you want to breed and use your female to go and meet those charecteristics by selecting the favourable dog that satisfies those needs . Over the years once you have a top dog which according to you meets those charecteristics then you can try to amplify and sustain those features by linebreeding but try to get there first . Here is a direct quote from the legend martin himself (and although it is acc. with GSD's has great significance for all breeders )

"Finally, what would you advise someone who is starting to breed and wants to do things right?"
WM: "I must tell the people you must buy from a very, very good leader, from a very, very good father and a very, very good mother the worst female puppy—the worst female puppy. And do you know why? Because nobody give you the best, so you can only have the worst, but this dog has the same blood as the others. Then breed this female to the best line and the best dog possible and select the one with the best character and anatomy."

"You must be very careful though that you do not fall into the trap of selecting dogs on the bases of performance only. You may have two dogs, one has the best genes for working but has a very bad trainer, the other one may have very bad genes for working but has a very excellent trainer. Which one gets the highest points?"

RC: "The second one."
WM: "Of course. So the second dog comes into the breed and the better dog is gone. This is a mistake that we must be aware of. The breed is built from good genes, not from good training."
 
#13 ·
Here is a good article by Rick Beauchamp

Thus far what we've looked at is what the owner of the ***** should be
considering when in the process of selecting the best possible stud
dog for the breeding being planned. But what about the more
experienced breeder--the one who has bred and kept quality bitches
over the years but now it seems, has hit the jackpot? Here, in this
latest litter is the dream dog--the male with "all the right stuff."

I would think the dog would be one that the breeder feels has a
preponderance of the line's best characteristics plus the quality or
qualities that seemingly could take the breeding program a giant step
forward. Let's register him as Mr. Wonderful (add your own kennel
name) and we'll just call him "Wonder" for short.

Wonder could have come about through one of several well thought out
breeding approaches: inbreeding, linebreeding or outcrossing. The
latter probably being the least popular with the experienced breeder.
Most breeders believe the offspring resulting from an outcross are
less apt to be less dominant in transmitting virtues than the linebred
or inbred dog. On the other hand, the outcross breeding is also more
apt to bring in the characteristic that has proven most elusive in a
breeder's own line.

Regardless of approach, Wonder has arrived. There he stands in the
living, breathing flesh. He has "it" and more. That's the good
part--the easy part. Well, if not the easy part, at least the part
that's done! But now there are some questions that must be asked. And
the answers are not so easy to come by.

Does his genotype back up his phenotype or was this simply a fortunate
accident? Will the dog be able to pass himself on--both what the line
has and what he has as an individual? What will the downside, the
problems, be that will be encountered in Wonder's use?

Those are the questions my friends. Now let's go on and see if some of
them can be answered.

Personally speaking, I would want to know a dog that might be used on
many of the bitches in my kennel and potentially be responsible for
hundreds of puppies in his lifetime, had both a significant sire and a
quality dam. Ideally the ***** tail line would be one of the
consequential ones that has borne the major weight of establishing my
own line. If the sire of the litter could boast the same kind of
heritage I would be just that much more optimistic about the young
dog's future as a sire.

You might show Wonder and you might run a lot of advertisements and he
may do a lot of winning. Terrific! The thrill of victory, the agony of
defeat, and all that.

Enjoy that for what it is because gathering every Best In Show rosette
in the land will have no bearing on what appears in the whelping box
sired by our boy of the hour. He will have to qualify as a producer
just like every other dog--through his offspring.

How then can we find out if the "heir apparent" will be able to
produce the quality for which we chose to keep him in the first place?
There is one way, and one way only. He must be test bred. Test
breeding a young stud is a long, time consuming and costly affair and
it should begin as soon after the dog is sexually matured as possible.
This does not mean he should be bred to death the minute he is capable
of breeding. It simply means his mates are selected carefully and
lined up for breedings when it is appropriate for the male to have
another breeding.

The test stud must be linebred, inbred and out crossed. He must be
given the benefit of quality bitches and if space and suitable
placement opportunities exist, he should be given a shot at what he
can do with the merely adequate *****. Copious notes must be taken to
see what the common denominators are among his offspring.

This takes a number of litters and it requires your seeing all of his
offspring as often as you can along the way. See them develop. See
them go on to fulfill their promise or disappoint. What similarities
both negative and positive exist through all the litters? What are the
peculiarities when the dog is linebred--outcrossed--inbred? Do not
trust these characteristics to memory. Write them down. Keep a
pedigree, description and photo, if possible, of every dam to which
the dog is bred.

You are learning what this dog's genetic makeup enables him to
produce. If your only concern is that he sires living puppies for
those who plunk down a stud fee, you needn't bother with all this.
This approach is only for people who are serious about improving their
line, making a contribution to the breed and in the process,
determining just what the young sire is capable of doing.

What to Look For:

Observe the individual offspring in each of Wonder's litters and note
the similarities as well as the differences. Both are equally
important. Look for overall consistency of quality in young Wonder's
progeny. If there aren't at least some quality puppies in most of the
litters I would not be too enthused about the young dog's future as a
sire. If you find he is regularly producing disqualifying or very
serious faults, eliminate him and those offspring from your breeding
program! If you don't do this, it will haunt you for the rest of your
life as a breeder.

But let's say the dog is on the positive track. Hopefully you'll begin
to see similarities in the puppies regardless of whether they are from
similar pedigrees or not. Hope for general uniformity among the good
ones. You're going to have the occasional big one, the small one and
the ugly one. There might even be one along the way that has faults
yet to be invented. It is totally unrealistic to expect all the
puppies in a litter to look alike. Look for the good ones to resemble
each other.

I've heard people rave about how similar the puppies were in their
litter or how they would rather have a consistent litter than just one
or two good ones. Quite frankly, I see that as pure nonsense! The "no
fault" litter can just as easily be a no quality litter. Toads all
look alike. What does that tell you?

You as a breeder are aiming for the good ones--the more the merrier.
Don't concern yourself about the mediocre ones insofar as show stock
is concerned. They won't be shown (or shouldn't be), and they
certainly shouldn't be bred from. They have no consequence in a
breeding program other than making sure everything you breed has
correct Boxer temperament and is healthy. A good part of the Boxer's
essence is in that courageous and carefree attitude. Anything less is
not a Boxer.

What the stud dog owner should be hoping for is a dog whose offspring
are immediately recognizable; dogs that ringside spectators will not
have to open a catalog to see who they are sired by. These are the
offspring of the truly great sire.

Stud Dog Shopping:

When I'm looking for a stud dog I make it a point to attend the
national specialty and watch all the classes--dogs and
bitches--puppies on up. I circle the numbers of the entries that catch
my eye. Now understand, I'm not talking about something that catches
my eye because it's flashy and shows its head off . There's nothing
wrong with that, it's icing for the cake you'll be baking. The dog
that gets my circle is the one that meets my type expectations. I
don't check breeding, I just circle the number. I pay as close
attention as I can to both the similarities and the differences in the
dogs whose overall look has earned them a notation. If the standout
also excels in what I feel my particular ***** needs, I put a single
diagonal line across the circle. I make it a point to go over this
one. If the individual is one that impresses me as something I'd like
to see come out of my kennel, I put another, intersecting diagonal
across the circle.

I'm interested in seeing what differences lie within my selections
because if they prove to be by the same sire or sires, these
differences can be an indication of the areas in which the sires are
not dominant. Then I must know if my ***** line can carry the absence
of these characteristics.

Later I go over my notes and hieroglyphics and see if there is a
consistency in breeding behind the dogs I've noted. Very often I've
found that there are one or two sires that will get the credit.
However, other times I've initially been disappointed because although
there was consistency in type, it appeared there was no consistency in
breeding. That is, until I did some research.

Invariably there was an answer beyond the obvious. Often I've found an
extremely influential grand sire who stood immediately behind the sire
or the dam or for that matter, behind both. This could be the magic
dog. The one who could provide the answers. That is of course if he is
indeed compatible with your ***** line. To repeat--no one dog can do
it all for the breed!

Wouldn't it be great though, after you've found the dog that you're
looking for, to be able to get educated answers from the owner to
those all important questions--what the dog has proven dominant in;
what kind of ***** should be bred to him or the kind of ***** that
should not be bred to him.

If the dog has been properly test bred and the results carefully
noted, you will be able to get those answers. However if the owner
tries to tell you his dog can solve all your problems irrespective of
the *****, save yourself a lot of headaches (to say nothing of the
money involved) and go elsewhere.

I owned a very famous stud dog of another breed who, in fact, now 30
years after his birth still stands as the top producing sire of all
time in his breed. When people would ask me what faults the dog
produced, I had one very short answer--ALL! However, he produced one
hell of a lot of quality when bred to the right bitches.

I have to admit I helped. When I would spot a ***** that I thought was
exactly the kind he did well with I would try and buy her or if not
that, try and convince the owner to breed to my dog. As a result he
produced Group and Best In Show winners in practically every major dog
showing country in the world.

In Summary:

Stud dog management is a critical part of dog breeding. Anyone who
thinks otherwise is naive. The problem is that too many people are not
willing to invest the time, money and patience required. They want
puppies next month for show dogs next year. If they assemble enough
dogs and bitches, breed often enough in enough different ways,
something good is bound to emerge if only by accident. True, but what
about all the residue? And what kind of future does the good one
produced by this shotgun method promise?

Give the good ***** the benefit of breeding her to the best stud dog
in the country that backs up and adds to her quality. Remember,
gambling is for the experienced breeder. There is only one stud dog
for a top class *****--the right one. Better she should be bred once
in her lifetime to the right dog than three or four times to second
best, because that is what you will invariably wind up with--second best!

So, does this tell it all? Is this the magic formula that guarantees
success? Not by a long shot. It simply puts you at the beginning of a
remarkable journey--a journey that just might lead you to the Holy
Grail of dogdom--the dog you've always dreamed about.
 
#14 ·
And another by Carmen Battaglia

Much can be said about this subject and all the considerations that are involved, but selecting the right sire will always begin by knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the ***** to be bred. If you don't know her strengths or weaknesses any sire will do. For example, if she has good over-all conformation and good breadth of pedigree, the job of finding the right sire is less difficult. On the other hand if she has some good traits and several faults, the job of finding the right sire requires more thought and research.
The task of finding the best sire always gets easier when you have a clear understanding of what it is that you expect to get in the litter. You can't have as your goal breeding a champion. You have to focus on the specific traits of conformation, health or temperament. A combination of these three generally works best. By using pedigree analysis techniques a breeder can learn about the qualities and the lack of qualities in the pedigree of the ***** as well as those in the pedigree of each sire that is being considered.
Because there is no direct way of looking into a pedigree to see if the desired genes or undesirable genes are present, an indirect method is needed. This means finding out about the phenotypes of the ancestors for three generations. It also includes learning about the littermates of the ***** and each sire that is being considered. The former approach is called pedigree depth and the latter is called breadth of pedigree. Both are important and useful methods.
As soon as the strengths and weaknesses of the ***** are known, a list of stud dog candidates can be developed. Start with a large number of good candidates. Ten may seem to be more than enough but you will find that ten is not too many. The list of candidates must be screened, sorted and then reduced to a smaller group, usually to the best 2 or 3. Experience teaches us that some will be better then others based on appearance, quality of pedigree, health history, and offspring produced.

The most popular reasons used to select a sire are listed:


Convenience - proximity to the residence of the *****
Cost - the economics, the cheapest stud dog
Pedigree - number of champion ancestors
Offspring produced – quality pups
Ancestors/litter mates - known producers

By themselves these reasons are not sufficient for selecting a stud dog because none are sufficient to evaluate the faults and virtues of the *****. Cost, convenience and show records are sometimes perceived as legitimate reasons by those who lack experience and knowledge. The best search for the right stud dog always includes knowledge about his traits, health history, temperament and the qualities seen in his offspring. Geography and economics have nothing to do with his genetics or his ability to compliment the strengths and offset the weaknesses of the *****.

Developing a list of 10 stud dogs begins by contacting breeders, handlers and judges who are knowledgeable about the breed. Stud dog advertisements usually promise more than they can produce. As a general rule, one should be cautious about those who recommend their own dogs because of their vested interest in the matter.
Once a list of 10 dogs has been developed, each should be checked against those traits and characteristics which are considered to be important to the breeding. Sometimes they are also related to a breed's function (sound hips, temperament, size, strength etc). The diseases to be checked should be those that are specific to the breed. In the final analysis the ideal stud dog should be able to compliment the strengths of the ***** and offset her faults.
Evaluating stud dogs must be systematic and include the careful examination of his pedigree including the relationship of his ancestors to each other. If there are common relatives in his pedigree that have produced serious health problems, poor temperaments or life threatening diseases take them off the list. When you are finished write down what is known about each pedigree in a summary statement. Compare the pedigree of each sire with what is needed to compliment the pedigree of the *****. This is a sorting process that will result in finding one or two candidates that have the best health histories, temperament, breed traits and progeny. What you will discover is that the most popular sires will usually be the ones that have produced more offspring than the others. There will also be more information about them than others who are less popular. In either case, as the facts are gathered and studied, the original list of stud dogs will be shortened.
Seeing the dogs firsthand has no substitute. Visit their kennels and watch them at shows. Remember that the skillful handling of these dogs in the ring by paid professionals and the limited amount of time allowed a judge makes the show ring the second best place to see and evaluate them. Even the best of breeders can miss an important fault that is carefully hidden. It is always best to see them in a more relaxed setting.
Successful breeding programs always analyze the information collected.
The four steps generally used to check the desirability of sires and dams are:


Frequency of desired traits occurring among their ancestors (three-generation pedigree).
Frequency of the desired traits found in their littermates.
Number of carriers or affected littermates and ancestors (three generations pedigree).
Number of pups produced with desired traits.
When answers to the above are taken together, a reasonable projection can be made about their potential value. For example, if there are no ancestors or littermates with the desired traits, and if nothing is known about their health history or temperament, there is little reason to believe they will produce the traits desired. They should be removed from the list or placed near the bottom.
If Mendel were asked to suggest an approach he would probably begin by asking if the parents had produced offspring consistent in size, shape and color because he knew from his experiments that if the parents came from pedigrees that produced indifferent sizes, shapes and undesirable colors they should not be expected to produce individuals that would be similar each other or to their parents. He discovered this simple truth in the 1860's and it should not be ignored today. Illustrated in Figure 1 are 10 candidates that were considered in a search for the best stud dog for a hypothetical *****. The reader should list the defects and traits considered important to his breed.





Figure 1. CHECK LIST AND CANDIDATES
Name of Sire PRA Liver HD Heart Tail Size Shoulder Back Coat Teeth
1. Ch. Way To Go Carrier Clear OFA NT C 6/9 4/7 4/6 6/6 6/6
2. Ch. Nestle Quick NT NT OFA NT I 2/9 M 2/7 5/6 6/6
3. Ch. Jump N Joy NT NT OFA NT I 2/4 3/4 3/4 3/4 3/4
4. Ch. Nice Topper NT NC NT NC I 3/4 1/4 3/9 M M
5. Ch. Holly Top Clear Clear NT Clear C 7/9 4/9 6/9 7/9 9/9
6. Van Joner's Que Clear Clear OFA NT C 4/8 4/8 8/9 7/9 7/9
7. Ch. VanCleeve's Asa Clear Clear OFA Clear C 8/10 6/10 6/8 7/9 9/9
8. Ch. Slade Rimee NT NT OFA M C M 9/10 M 3/9 6/9
9. Ch. Fryer We Not NT NC NT NT I 1/5 2/9 1/9 3/9 3/9
10. Hope Well Bee M NT NO Clear C 2/5 M 3/9 M 1/4

NC - not clear, NT - Not tested, C - Correct, I - Incorrect, M- Missing information



Analysis of the Candidates
Dogs number 1, 5, 6 and 7 have the best health histories and look very good on five of the six important breed traits. They also ranked highest for having the best ratios of offspring that meet desired breed characteristics. Sires # 2, 4, 8, 9 and 10 should not be considered further unless more information can be found. To use these 5 sires is equivalent to breeding blind. At first glance, sire # 3 looked like a promising candidate based on his offspring. He produced 2 of 4 offspring of the correct size, 3 of 4 with good shoulders and 2 of 4 with correct top lines, coat and feet. But look at his health history. This is what makes him a risky choice. He has not been tested for PRA, liver or heart disease that are popular problems in his breed. His only health asset is that he was OFA certified normal for his hips. The final selection should come from sires 1,5,6 or 7. The most promising one is #7 based on health history and desired traits observed in his offspring. Selection of the right stud dog should be a slow and deliberate process. Temperament should not be overlooked in this process.
Some owners do not believe in testing their stud dogs on the grounds that it is too costly because they do not believe in the predictability of x-rays or the reliability of laboratory test results. Others will argue that their bloodlines and pedigrees are clear of carriers and defects and there is no need to waste their time and money on unnecessary tests. The stud dogs owned by these breeders should not be considered. I recall one breeder who told me that he did not check his dogs for HD because he "did not have HD in his lines". Later I learned that he usually sold his pups at 8 weeks of age. Since it is unlikely that HD or any other disease will occur prior to four months of age he misleads himself and others into believing what is not true.
 
#15 ·
Right now I am loving looking at different dogs and their pedigrees, and I think I finally have a top 5 list that I am pretty confident with if I ever breed my Ruby.

That said, the dogs I chose are either line breeds, out crosses or dogs that I just like for whatever reason. I know my Ruby doesn't have a horribly correct front, but I don't want a dog that has the front I want, I want a dog who consistently produces that front. I don't really want to add much more bone to my girl, so I have to be careful in that regard, I like what she has for a yellow coat, I am really quite pleased with what I have, she is exactly what I wanted physically, and that is a great credit to her breeder...

I like to think that Ruby comes from a very strong, if not well known ***** line. Ruby being the exact replica of her grandmother.
 
#18 ·
Just found the time to read this interesting thread, hence a few more ramblings!

The articles are thought provoking, the personal opinions contributed body to a subjective discussion. For me, the best stud dog is the one whose genotype is a true reflection of his phenotype – you wouldn’t be considering him if you didn’t like his phenotype – and these boys are about as rare as an ice cube in Hell. Pedigrees are fascinating to study, genetic liability is fun to calculate and gives us a sense of getting a handle on things… but the proof of the pudding still lies in the eating… and not in the recipe! There have been a few geneticists involved in Lab breeding – among other things, they have served to teach us that science is no replacement for a good eye and a discerning gut.

Let’s compare strategies behind some of the greatest producers in recent times – sorry, I’ll stay this side of the pond, although the dogs in question overlap with many of the American producers.

The fruit of two well-engineered line breedings: Sh.Ch. Sandylands Gadabout and Rocheby Old Smokey – one a champion/producer, the other making his claim to fame through his offspring. Gadabout is the grandson of S. Bramble through his sire, My Guy (another great producer), and her great-grandson through his dam Sh.Ch. S. Bliss (an amazingly beautiful *****). This is textbook breeding, lined on Bramble… who was never shown. If we look further, we will see that all four of Bramble’s grandparents go back to the pivotal “Tan-Shadow” mating, often several times. Gadabout’s ***** tail line could not get any better: Sh.Ch. Bliss – Rae – Bramble – Sh.Ch. S. Longley Come Rain (one of the greatest ***** producers) – S. Go Lightly On Longly – Ch. Sandylands Truth (dam of Mark, the greatest producer of all time). Bramble is therefore the dam of My Guy, grand-dam of Bliss, ggd. Of Gadabout, ggggd of Borador’s By George (sire of Lobuff Puffin). Not bad!

Old Smokey, b. 1997, is a force to be reckoned with – Top Stud Dog and sire of at least nine British Champions that I can think of, including some of my very favourites, i.e. Sh.Ch. Cambremer Two to Tango, Sh.Ch. R. Smocked Silk at Suttonpark and Crufts winner Sh.Ch. Lindall Double Blue. NB, there are only about 10 champs made up in Britain every year, in hot competition. Look at his ***** tail line: Sh.Ch. Rocheby Polkadot (record 3 times BOB at Crufts) – Sh.Ch. R. Acorn (dam of champs Royal Oak, Popcorn, Corn Flower, Rippling Corn, Rolling Stone, Whisky Mac & Polkadot) – R. Polished Oak (the ***** that made me fall in love, all Lab). Look at Smokey’s breeding: his sire, Navy Blue, was doubled on Royal Oak and his dam, Polkadot, is Royal Oak’s full sister.

So, just when you think that line breeding to the best is the answer, you smack your nose on just the opposite… also doing a great job! How about the sire behind so many of your top dogs: Sh.Ch. Receiver of Cranspire? An outcross with a pedigree that went in very different directions, a sire who didn’t leave an indelible mark on the breed, a dam who, from all accounts, was no beauty and not a single champion on that much cherished bottom line!! Yet what a producer – I don’t know if anyone has had the courage to tally up his champion offspring all over the world, with their repercussions on today’s Labs, but just through the American champions Ruffy and Arnold, it would already be a horrendous job!!

And what worked for him seems to work for his great-granddaughter, Sh.Ch. Covetwood Elouise of Carpenny, herself an outcross with a very mixed pedigree. Elouise is obviously an extraordinary producer as Penny has only used her in outcrosses: her offspring include Crufts BOB Ch. Carpenny Walpole (an outcross except for Receiver twice in the 4th generation), Sh.Ch. C. Rustina (another outcross with Receiver as the only bond) and another Crufts BOB Ch. C. Anchorman – not only a total outcross but his sire is almost entirely of Field Trial lines!! And these lines are breeding on… and breeding today’s champions!!

If you still think that there are blueprints for producing quality Labs that are homozygous for the breed attributes they pass on, then I rest my case….
 
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