Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...
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Thread: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

  1. #1
    ThatsMyGirl Guest

    DefaultPedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question, but I'm curious about something ...

    I have been looking at breeders (just in the planning stages) and have noticed that often times I will see pedigrees where the sire has his CH but the dam does not. I've not seen it in the reverse. Is the sire having his CH more important than the dam?

    TIA

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  3. #2
    WigWag Guest

    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    No difference in "importance". Gaining a championship is difficult in this breed because it's so competitive. Also the worth or merit of a championship varies depending on if the dog finished with wins under breeder/judges and/or at specialties versus all breed shows and if a handler was used. Some handlers can finish just about anything even dogs not worth their salt I'm afraid. Breeders will often put more time and money into finishing a boy versus a girl since they keep fewer boys and numbers are smaller at shows for boys so it's a little easier to win. Breeders have more girls and so they may chose one to show and the others for breeding and performance. Does that make sense? So I might be more interested in a litter that has parents who are both NOT champions depending on the pedigree and the dogs themselves versus a litter that has champion parents.

  4. #3
    ThatsMyGirl Guest

    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    Ahhhh ... thanks for taking the time to explain that, Sharon. As a matter of curiousity, is there an average time that it takes to finish? And just how much money are we talking? ;D

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  6. #4
    CaliforniaLabLover's Avatar
    CaliforniaLabLover is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    Here is my "take" on it as a newbie:

    Most breeders try to finish their boys because they are usually up for stud to other interested parties as well. Bitches usually are bred by the owner/breeder and not by some outside party like a stud dog is. Because of that, it seems like there is usually a lot more advertising, "showing off," and "scandal" (rumors, gossip, etc.) associated with stud dogs than bitches.

    With stud dogs, usually a breeder isn't going to run to a stud dog with a known conformational problem to attempt to "improve their lines" if the bitch to be bred is already beautiful. A bitch, you may be able to get away with breeding even with a bad bite or whatnot because you may be able to breed that bitch to a stud dog with a fantastic bite and breed the "bite problem" out of your lines. Someone usually isn't going to risk this with a stud dog- why risk a stud fee on a dog that may cause you to have a litter of 8-12 puppies with an undershot jaw or whatnot? I don't know if that makes sense, but that is one reason people compete with their dogs- to compare them to the breed standard and other dogs within that breed. Those who are the closest to what each judge thinks is "perfect" for that breed are going to be those who typically win under that judge.

    Most people consider earning a CH. a way to "prove" them worthy of breeding. For what it is worth, I think it certainly seems to be a pretty incredible achievement for anyone with a less than pretty spectacular dog (at least in California- I don't know about other states/regions) to earn a CH (bitches or dogs)...it takes beating a lot of dogs to get the required "majors" of 3-5 point wins (they need 2 of those), in addition to quite a few single-point wins. That is a lot of investments: Time, money, effort, training, travelling, and a good dog- regardless of whether it is at a specialty, an all-breed show (which they are often looking for a different type of dog at all-breed shows), or under a provisional vs. breeder-judge.

    JMHO. Sorry to ramble...I'm having trouble finding words to explain what I mean.


    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    Although not a breeder i would love to take it up some time down the line ( a decade or so from now) and I have a lot to learn!! My take is that the entire PURPOSE OF SHOWING in conformation is to establish the fact that the particular dog or bitch concerned is close enough to the standard to be awarder points and positions and that in a given competition the particular dog has in time and time again showed itself to be close to the standard so that it is A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE BREED!! However the one moot point that is often overlooked is the fact that given any show or speciality you may be darn close to the standard but you may end up in a situation where many other dogs represent better examples of the breed as compared to your dog therefore are given the points instead of you. This is where a dog which is a stud dog comes into the equation as he has to be the absolute quality inorder to get enough offerings as stud (otherwise it defeats the purpose of a stud dog) . For a bitch where there is more no.s of bitches in the ring and titles are more competitive one can often have a great bitch and not get a Ch. title however the bitch may be an excellent bitch to breed to a stud dogs..However what bothers me is the fact that the buyer (wether he is looking for show prospects or just a good quality pet) is often confused by this . No average buyer (or even an advanced buyer) is as knowledgable as say a judge so what other marker does he have to see if the bitch is close enough to he standard to be called a GOOD EXAMPLE?? How does he know that a non titled bitch is a good example and lab charecteristics should be passed on into the future gen of this allready populus breed?? In GSD's and Rotties the german style showing awards a rating to a particular dog which speaks for its quality and this rating is independent of competition (well some degee of independence) there can be multiple V RATED AND SG Rated dogs in one show and therefore the show is more of quality oriented rather competition oreinted..Another thing that is impressive is breed surveys by breed wardens which can show what quality of a dog is expected to produce good result with what quality of bitch!

  8. #6
    CaliforniaLabLover's Avatar
    CaliforniaLabLover is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    Quote Originally Posted by pluto
    In GSD's and Rotties the german style showing awards a rating to a particular dog which speaks for its quality and this rating is independent of competition (well some degee of independence) there can be multiple V RATED* AND SG Rated dogs in one show and therefore the show is more of quality oriented rather competition oreinted..
    These ratings are true in labradors showing through the International All-Breed Canine Association as well. I haven't ever been to one of those shows, but know people who have, and the arguments for and against these so called "titles" in labs are interesting to read.
    http://www.internationaldogshow.com/

    I have to say though, I know of some examples of these types of "International Champions" through a couple of less reputable breeders around here, and there is no wonder they have these titles rather than their AKC titles....I wasn't impressed. I don't know about elsewhere in the nation, but around here, having an "Int. Ch." alone (without the AKC points, etc. to back it up) through the IABCA isn't saying much.

    ~Julie, Rogue, Monty, and Eddy~

    "The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue." -Anon

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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    Yes it is quite sad to know that the quality isnt up to the mark,however going to a ADRK judged seiger show one can expect good results and the fact that good quality will be identified and rewarded . In case of rotties it may be the only resort , for example one of my friends imported a rottie into the US from one of the Klubseiger kennel of the years (earl antonius) as the the dog was bred in europe he hadnt had his tail docked , for this very reason the judges in the AKC put him down and out even though he had solid show results against much tougher competition in europe , anyways my friend got mad and stopped showing him and would only show him in seiger shows , however now he has people who didnt want the dog to win and left him out want puppies from him of off the same dog. I am not aware of how things take place in the US but are there facilitied available to breedres where they can get their dog surveyed . In germany all dogs are surveyed before breeding by breed inspectors but the AKC follows no such regulations however can i opt for a breed survey in the US and are their facilities that help to it.

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    Labsrme is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    The reality is that some show champions are indeed wonderful examples of the breed, but not all of them are. I have seen some show champions that I wouldn't want any part of for my breeding program. Conversely, there are many dogs who are not titled champions that are wonderful dogs conformationally, they just weren't shown for some reason. Dog shows are a very expensive and very political game, and not everyone is willing or able to play it. I have heard that the average cost to finish a labrador in my area is $10,000.00 to $15,000.00. Tess has some single points and one major, so I can't comment on the final cost to finish her yet, but I've already spent a bundle on dog shows - no question about it.

    I think most breedings that you see have CH studs because the bitch owners can basically "shop" for the best dog out there and most people won't consider a stud dog that doesn't have his CH. Stud dog owners can and do decline breedings if they don't like the bitch, but the bitch owner is basically in the driver's seat, for the most part.

  11. #9
    WigWag Guest

    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    There are two types of "International Champion". One is through a registry only here in the U.S. - I think the IABCA that Julie mentioned that holds dog shows and the other is if the dog has a championship title in three or more countries - big difference.

  12. #10
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    DefaultRe: Pedigree Question -- Sort of ...

    As for the sires who do have titles and girls who do not...WHY not?

    I am a particular fan of girls who have titles, as it shows me that they are more then just sitting around waiting to be bred.

    Often on breeders websites I can see it is blatently obvious that they are breeding their 'nothing' (in words only) girls to popular studs and then continue to do so without any regards to attaining titles on the girls, only breeding up so to speak. And only breeding to breed.

    I want to know that the girl (and boy for that matter) were more then just waiting around to be bred!


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