**NEW INFO** technical question about underground dog fence installation...
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    steveandginger's Avatar
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    Default **NEW INFO** technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Not sure if anyone here might have the electrical knowledge to answer this, but...

    The most typical way to run an underground fence involves both twisted and untwisted wire. The untwisted wire is to be used on your perimeter, where you want it to be "electrically active" -- i.e. where it will activate the dog's collar. The twisted pair of wires is used where you need to run a wire but don't want it to activate the dog's collar. My question is -- can you use some type of shielded cable (for instance, quad-shielded coaxial cable) instead of a twisted pair of wires? In other words, will the shielding on the cable keep the wire from activating the dog's collar?

    I am going to cross-post this in Lab Chat, as I was not sure which forum might be better for this question...

    Thanks --

    Steve

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Shielding and grounding the shield should work. The signal transmitted is not very strong to begin with.

    The bigger question is that you need to draw the physical layout and understand every enrty/exit as well as contained area.

    Remember that these systems require a continuous wire from the unit all the way to the return to the unit.. It is difficult to cisualize what it is you are trying to accomplish without a plot of the layout.

    Sending you a PM
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Endofile:

    How would one go about "grounding" the shield?

    Steve

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    If there is more than one shielded sections, all of them have to be connected electrically, a wire running from one to the other, and then back to your source and connected to the third prong of a three prong outlet. You can also just drive a conductive spike into the ground and attach the shield to that. Not as effective as getting to the earth ground on your third prong.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    In my case, there would be only one shielded section, so connecting more than one section together would not be necessary. But, I am not sure how I would actually "ground the shielding" of a quad-shielded cable. Would one wrap a conductor around the various layers of shielding and then ground that conductor? I'm clueless...

    Steve

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Best bet is to follow the manufactures recommendations. If it were me I'd feel more comfortable that way.
    Doing the twists uses more wire (and wire isn't cheap these days) but it's worth it.
    Easiest way to twist the wires is to clamp one end in a drill and hold the other end in a vise. The slowly run the drill till you get the right twsit per foot.
    Also, adding coaxial would increase the number of underground connections, which is where you run the risk of loosing continuity.

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    Default Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    clelong --

    I agree with everything you said. I would feel more comfortable doing it the manufacturer's way. The problem is, I am enclosing roughly 3/4 acre -- thus, roughly 750 feet of wire to bury. If I do what the manufacturer suggests, I'll have to bury 1500 feet of wire, instead of 750. Twisting wire is not the issue; I'd gladly twist wire if that was the issue. But it's not a matter of using twisted wire, it's a matter of running a parallel pair of wires, in parallel trenches. Doubling the wire amount, though it would be more costly, is not the entire issue either. The biggest issue is the labor. I'd have to dig double the distance of trench (1500 feet vs. 750) to do what the manufacturer suggests, and then bury double the wire and re-fill double the distance of trench. They suggest that if I want my dog to have access to the back yard, from the house, that I should use the back of the house as one "side" of the fence -- which makes sense. The problem is, if you don't run a wire along the back of the house to close your loop, the only way to close the loop is to run 2 ditches, parallel to each other and about 5-10 feet apart, around all 3 sides of the back yard (except the "house" side.) Thus, you close the loop buy running a continuous wire out, along the 3 sides of the perimeter of your yard, in the first parallel trench, and then back again along the same 3 sides of the perimeter of your yard, in the second, parallel trench. Now you have a closed loop, wire fence along 3 sides of your yard. The house itself completes the enclosure on the 4th side. It's kind of hard to describe, but the bottom line is, it would be MUCH simpler, MUCH less labor, and quite a bit cheaper to simply run a single wire along the perimeter of the back yard, and then a single wire along the back side of the house to close the loop. You can't do it with a twisted wire across the back of the house -- if you did, you couldn't close the loop, since with a twisted pair of wires you would be running, obviously TWO wires. What do you connect the second wire to? It is hard for me to justify doubling my labor, when a single 60' wire might just do the trick. It seems like it will work, from all the info I am gathering, as long as I ground the shield of the wire.

    Steve

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    Default NEW INFO Re: technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Everyone:

    I spoke with an engineer from Radio Systems, INC. I found out some very interesting things.

    1. Innotek, and PetSafe, two of the largest manufacturers of in-ground pet fencing, have merged. I think Radio Systems is now the parent company. Some former Innotek models will still be sold, but now under the PetSafe name.

    2. The man I spoke with was the engineer who actually developed my particular system, the UltraSmart IUC-5100. He says the coax idea WILL NOT work -- since it uses a magnetic field to set off the collar. You can't "shield" the magnetic field.

    3. The particular solution this engineer has developed (and that they want me to field test) involves running a second loop of wire, around/in close proximity to the section of your fence "perimeter" wire that you want to be "deactivated" in terms of setting off the collar. You attach this second loop of wire to a piece of hardware which you can mount near your indoor transmitter. This piece of hardware somehow sends "cancelling" signal along the second loop, rendering your fence perimeter wire "deactivated" in the vicinity of the second loop. Kind of hard to describe, but if anyone wants more info I can give it. I will be interested to see how this works. The guy told me that they actually developed this solution for the PetSafe systems (since the companies weren't merged at the time), but he says it will work on the Innotek -- part of why they want me to field test it. He says they will update/customize the hardware for Innotek owners in the near future, and will eventually send me the updated version. In the mean time, he says it should work well. Now, I just have to wait for them to send it to me and we can go from there.

    Steve

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    Default Re: **NEW INFO** technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Steve,

    Thanks for this post. I am going to investgate a little bit. To be bluntly honest. I do not believe what this guy told you. I don't know how that can effectively generate this magnetic field with a wingle wire run in a straight line loop. i.e. verses a very long coil. I am not a novice in this technology, but will consult some experts. Would you be willing to copy any information they send you and forward it. Not a competitor situation, just a desire to increase knowledge base.
    Hershey Kisses, In charge of getting Ed out to the dog park so that he gets some exercise.

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    Default Re: **NEW INFO** technical question about underground dog fence installation...

    Endofile --

    I'm always willing to share info, but I do know that they will be sending me some papers from an attorney that I have to sign to begin the field test. They said they had some trouble, such as with people taking the hardware they got for free and then selling it on eBay, etc. I imagine that if this is still in development, the info may be proprietary.

    Are you implying that perhaps the coax WOULD work, but that they don't want anyone knowing that, since they want to sell their product instead?

    I obviously, not being an electronics/electrical person, have no idea if what he is saying is true, but he did say the coax would not work, since the collar is activated "magnetically," and thus you can't "block" or "shield" the wire from activating the collar.

    All I know is, you use this second loop of wire, and run it a few feet either side of your single, boundary wire, crossing the single wire at the point you want the "cancelling" to begin, and also at the point you want the "cancelling" to end. To complete the loop, you use a twisted wire, which goes into your house and attaches to some piece of powered equipment. Apparently, this second loop, attached to this piece of powered hardware, running along either side of your boundary wire and then crossing the boundary wire at two points -- the point you wish the "cancelling" to begin and the point you wish it to end -- can somehow result in a "cancelled" section of wire. That's all I know at this point.

    Does this give you any further info?

    Steve

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