Crate Training -- new pup, different approach? Looking for thoughts...

[steveandginger]

Hi all.

We crate-trained our first Lab Misty about 5 years ago; we took the "brute force" approach and "just did it" -- i.e., at bedtime, we put her in the crate next to our bed, and just let her protest to her heart's content (which she did, of course, to our DIScontent!) It worked, of course; a few days and she was fine.

I believe totally in the need to crate train. Having said that, we just brought home an 8 1/2-week old we have named Gracie. Gracie has a slightly different personality than our Misty did. Gracie is a super-sweet dog, but seems to be just a bit more timid at this point, but in particular, she is definitely much more into physical touch than Misty was at this age. She seems to get security from being snuggled close to us, whereas if Misty was touching us at this age, to her that simply meant one thing, and one thing only -- "biting time!!!!" Gracie does chew/bite us at times, of course, but it is more "at times." At other times, she wants to snuggle; she just seems to have much more of a need for physical touch. SO -- given this, I have been more reluctant to use the "brute force" approach with her. She is NOT afraid of the crate; my wife has been putting her toys in it and she will go in and get them with no problem; sometimes, she will even go in to get a toy and stay in there to play with it. We have also been picking her up, when she is sound asleep napping, and taking her in and putting her in her crate (door open so far), so that she gets used to waking up in there. No problem there. On her first night home, though, I set the crate on a small table, at bed height, put her in, and closed the door. You would have thought we were KILLING her!!! I couldn't take it. I felt she needed the security of physical contact -- especially on that first night in a new place, away from mom and siblings; she CLEARLY thinks sleeping time is cuddle time, and I just couldn't do it. So, I slept with her on the floor.

Last night, second night, still working on having her spend time in the crate during the day, door open. So, I decided to try a new approach -- sleeping in the spare bedroom, and placing the crate ON THE BED, sideways, with the opening next to my body, door open. I put her in, she crawled out next to me. I was tired and fell asleep. In the middle of the night, she had to potty, so I took her outside. We came back in, got in bed, and she wanted to chew for a bit; then, when she got tired, I put her back in the crate, and she went to sleep there. By morning, though, I woke up with her out of the crate, snuggled next to me.

My thought, in my head, is to continue this approach, but progressing forward. In other words, daytime, tossing toys in the crate to reinforce that it's a "good place;" then, though, when we put her in there when she falls asleep on a nap, starting to close the door. At night, I am thinking of working toward closing the door, but with the crate still on the bed, next to me. Then, after a night or two, putting the crate BESIDE the bed, on a table at bed height, door closed. Then, after a night or two, putting the crate ON THE GROUND, beside the bed, door closed, etc.

Here is my question, and where I want opinions...do any of you feel that there is any harm in trying this approach, for THIS particular dog, as opposed to the "brute force" method? I am making up this approach on the fly, trying to adapt to this specific puppy's apparent needs, temperament, and demeanor, and what might work best. But, if someone can give me a good argument why this approach is likely not going to work well, and that we need to just bite the bullet and go with "bedtime means pup in the crate on the floor beside the bed, door closed, using only voice as comfort, and only out of the crate at nighttime potty trips, until morning wake-up time" as the crate-training method we need to use, I'm all ears...

Thanks,

Steve

[kassabella]

I agree. I think all dogs are different and each needs their own needs meet.

One thing I would be careful of is creating a habit. I.e. chewing after potty break. I put them back to bed without any acknowledgment. It is bed time and that is it. Even now Erns will try it on if people are in the house.

Kassa would cry if I used brut force. Erns needed it, but also needed to be out smarted by me. Tessa gets upset with brute force so it is hard trying to crate train her. One day at a time.

Tessa smelt so bad I couldn't sleep with her in the room. She howled and became stressed in the crate outside the door. So I put her in the crate in the bedroom with perfume on my pillow until she smelt better.
Then I put her crate near the door moving it until she was in the other room. She never really slept as she hated the crate so I left the door open at night. I put my clothes in her crate and she settled better, but not through the night. I bought a cot mattress put if beside the bed with the clothes I wear that day and she sleeps there peacefully all night. She did have a few night of getting on the bed, but put her in the crate and she learned.

She will break out of the crate so each day I leave her increasing the time. She is up to 1 hour so going to be a long slow process. Takes time, but I think it is better for their mental state.

[tammyhuffman]

I will probably be crucified for this but I would do what ever worked. I would not be able to listen to a new puppy cry all night. Maxx is fine in his crate and has been since the beginning, it is next to our bed and he gets a special treat at bedtime in his crate. He is at the point now, after 6 weeks with us, that he begins standing at the bedroom door every night around 8:30 - 9:00 PM. He will look at me, look at the door, and so on. Emma was much like Gracie when we brought her home and she has never been in a crate, EVER. She is such an anxious dog that she gets upset when Maxx goes in his crate and she paces for a good hour. (thankfully Maxx could care less what she does when he is passed out!) Ozzy was a brute from day one but the crate turned him in to a whimpering pile of puppy, I caved and he never used a crate either. I also used to have a leather sofa and love seat but that is another story...
I have no doubt many will say you are letting the puppy train you, perhaps you are, I have to agree with kassabella - sometimes you have to do what works for YOU. Maybe she will begin to feel more secure over the weekend and you can begin to try the crate in your bedroom again. You are lucky she lets you cuddle like that, Maxx only wants to cuddle when he is really sleepy and when he first gets up. Otherwise he is full speed ahead and ready for action!

[steveandginger]

Very interesting comments from both of you, tammy and kassa, and I appreciate it.

Kassa -- I hear you about the "habits," but Gracie was going to chew for a bit after the potty break, period. I put her in the crate, she chewed the crate; she crawled out, and chewed my pillow, moved the pillow, she chewed my sheets! So, I gave her a toy in her crate, and let her chew. She calmed down fairly quickly and then went to sleep. The idea of putting in some clothes of ours is also a good one, if closing the door causes her to be too unhappy.

tammy -- yes, I hear you about "letting the puppy train us." (it makes me laugh, what you shared about "used to have a leather sofa and love seat..." ) I don't know if it's me being overly compassionate due to the loss of Misty, but I really think Gracie needs to be treated gentler. She really seems to thrive with physical touch and closeness. Like I said of Misty, and you of Maxx, NO WAY was "cuddling" going to happen. Not only was it not "needed" or "wanted," but instead it was an invitation to chew! I was not expecting this of Gracie, she is just so sweet. She really seems, so far, to have a really neat balance of independence and curiousity and energy, but also just a loving, cuddly, calm, mellow side of her. She was clearly stressed being taken from her litter mates, and I just sensed (sounds a bit silly, I know) that she needed physical closeness in order to bond and feel safe with us. But, having said that...for us, crate training needs to happen -- in one way or another.

Bottom line, both of you feel that there is some merit in adjusting the "approach" to this, based on this individual dog's personalities. Thanks for giving your take on this. Other thoughts/opinions?

Steve

[kassabella]

I crate train for several reasons. If ever they need to be over night at the vet they settle better. Not used to a crate in a strange place would cause them more stress. Erns wasn't crate trained when I got him and the vet sedated him. Not good.
If ever they have need to be quiet for days or weeks due to injury or health reasons they are o.k. with it.
I know they are safe for an hour or so if for any reason I can't be with them, or they could get into the kitchen while dinner is cooking.
It is their place to go if things are getting a bit much for them. Erns would often take himself off to is crate if Gems wouldn't leave him.

Being crate trained doesn't mean they spend all their lives in it. Only time the door is closed on Erns crate is to keep him out of it when he refuses to go outside.

[steveandginger]

Totally agree kassa, all good points that you raised. We didn't use the crate much with Misty when she got older, as she was totally trustworthy left alone in the house and wouldn't get into any trouble. But, she was trained early on and would use it for several reasons, as you stated. As she got older, and didn't need to be in the crate for safety reasons (her safety, as well as that of our home!), then she started using our closet as her "crate." When she wanted space or peace, she napped in the dark closet.

I have to get Gracie crate-trained; only question is the "how" of it...

Steve

[kassabella]

Very interesting comments from both of you, tammy and kassa, and I appreciate it.

I don't know if it's me being overly compassionate due to the loss of Misty, but I really think Gracie needs to be treated gentler. She really seems to thrive with physical touch and closeness. . She was clearly stressed being taken from her litter mates, and I just sensed (sounds a bit silly, I know) that she needed physical closeness in order to bond and feel safe with us. But, having said that...for us, crate training needs to happen -- in one way or another.

Bottom line, both of you feel that there is some merit in adjusting the "approach" to this, based on this individual dog's personalities. Thanks for giving your take on this. Other thoughts/opinions?

Steve

You know your puppy best. She has been taken from her family so will be stressed. I think Kassa was for about 2-3 nights.
I tend to be soft, but also push them a bit hard. If that makes sense.
I always try the approach I want to acheive first and if that doesn't work, back it up a bit until they aren't stressed and move on reaching to my goal. May not be the correct way of training, but if it works for me and my dog then it is the best thing.Having adopted Erns who was so stressed from brut force I learned forcing a dog to do something could have long term effects that don't help anyone.

[steveandginger]

I pretty much agree, Kassa. That's my thinking, too. We are on the third day, and Gracie is definitely less stressed and more "settled."

Steve

[bearbuddymarie]

Well, my last three pups all slept in the bed with me from
their first nite on !
And, they were all crate trained for when we werent home.
You CAN have it both ways.
I really feel they need the warmth and bonding when they are
so young, and have never had an accident in the bed.
And of course I love it too.
We also have dog beds on the bedroom floor if they choose.

[steveandginger]

Now THERE's a different thought, bearbuddymarie. You threw me a curve ball! I will have to think on that one...though I don't think long-term we'll want a 60 pound Lab in our bed!

Steve