Odin

[BigBrownDog]

If you are an advocate of dominance theory (as it seems from what you say above) I wish you luck and a good nearby urgent care for yourself. Dealing with a dog like this is not easy. He growled - warning. He nipped - warning. Next time it'll be a more severe bite.

Dominance theory is NOT current thought in animal behavior science anymore.

[underthemangotree]

You didn't give me much constructive criticism at all. He's our dog, and that's it, we aren't giving him back to the shelter because of an incident like this. There was really no point in professing your distrust of my capabilities. In fact, it's very much like telling a 9 month pregnant woman you have no confidence in her mothering.

When i wrote that post i was hoping for someone to understand the situation and give *advice*. I was hoping to know if growling was something others experienced with their dogs and the actions they took. That's why i posted about growling earlier, but i got no response, and so i went about it the way i thought best at the time. And now here you are ignoring the things i have said previously by suggesting that i'll continue pushing him to the point that i need urgent care. Real nice. You animadvert against the "Dominance Theory" yet fail to give me any alternatives, in this post and the last. The likelihood that there will even be a next bite is no longer existent, I've already made necessary changes and i will follow through with them and get proper advice from a professional. While sometimes online forums can be a wonderful thing, other times it just kindles misunderstandings.

Thanks for wishing me "luck".

[BigBrownDog]

My advice is and was originally to get a trainer involved. Nobody is going to advise you on techniques to use on a food aggressive dog, who has demonstrated he is willing to bite, over the internet. (Food aggressive or resource guarding are the correct terms for his behavior - possessiveness of favored objects is something many dogs do at some point - but guarding or aggression attached to possessiveness is different) He has a behavioral issue that needs to be observed and discussed in person by someone with experience in dealing with that.

Applying things you may have seen or read (Cesar Milan for example) to a dog that needs 'one on one' experienced training is not a great idea. You have a notion of how dogs think that I just don't agree with (dominance theory) and I believe applying those notions to dogs who aggress (growling and biting) just will lead to more and worse biting. I don't think that this is a dominant dog - I think this is a very recently rehomed (insecure) dog whose prior experience perhaps included a need to protect it's resources. If you try to exert your 'dominance' over this dog because you think he'll see you as a leader and back down, what you'll more likely get is a dog that is not going to trust you, who will consider you another threat to his resources and you'll get bitten. If my shelter rescue sharp/shy dog had been dealt with as you are working with your dog, she'd have bitten me.

That's my considered opinion of the path you are on. You don't have to agree or believe me, obvously. It's free advice on the internets - I am not your paid consultant.

And - I told you to contact the shelter to inquire about his prior behavior and to see if they can help with training - I never suggested returning him - that is you reading into my words.

If you are open to learning about a different and better way of working with dogs these are good books to read:
The Other End of the Leash -General Dog Training Books at Patricia McConnell

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dont...yor/1003283687



And with that, I'm done. Maybe someone else on our board will give you info you like better.

[Sophiesmama]

I don't think you've had him long enough to build a trust between you. He evidently had something in his past to make him have trust issues. I would be loving to him. Make sure he knows he has to depend on you for his needs. I was watching Animal Planet, and they work with dogs with these kinds of problems by using a hand on a stick. They pet and sweet talk the dog with the fake hand till he gets used to it. He needs to trust that you aren't going to take it away. I would say not to punish him by taking away food, treats or toys. I would keep treating him with kindness. Placing yourself as "alpha" may make matters worse. Try giving a treat before you take the toy. Give lots of praise. It may take awhile. I would not allow children near him in these situations till you have his behavior modified. Good luck. It is often hard to get an older dog because you have to undo his previous fears and insecurities.

[underthemangotree]

My advice is and was originally to get a trainer involved. Nobody is going to advise you on techniques to use on a food aggressive dog, who has demonstrated he is willing to bite, over the internet. (Food aggressive or resource guarding are the correct terms for his behavior - possessiveness of favored objects is something many dogs do at some point - but guarding or aggression attached to possessiveness is different) He has a behavioral issue that needs to be observed and discussed in person by someone with experience in dealing with that.

Applying things you may have seen or read (Cesar Milan for example) to a dog that needs 'one on one' experienced training is not a great idea. You have a notion of how dogs think that I just don't agree with (dominance theory) and I believe applying those notions to dogs who aggress (growling and biting) just will lead to more and worse biting. I don't think that this is a dominant dog - I think this is a very recently rehomed (insecure) dog whose prior experience perhaps included a need to protect it's resources. If you try to exert your 'dominance' over this dog because you think he'll see you as a leader and back down, what you'll more likely get is a dog that is not going to trust you, who will consider you another threat to his resources and you'll get bitten. If my shelter rescue sharp/shy dog had been dealt with as you are working with your dog, she'd have bitten me.

That's my considered opinion of the path you are on. You don't have to agree or believe me, obvously. It's free advice on the internets - I am not your paid consultant.

And - I told you to contact the shelter to inquire about his prior behavior and to see if they can help with training - I never suggested returning him - that is you reading into my words.

If you are open to learning about a different and better way of working with dogs these are good books to read:
The Other End of the Leash -General Dog Training Books at Patricia McConnell

BARNES & NOBLE | Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training by Karen Pryor | Paperback, Audiobook



And with that, I'm done. Maybe someone else on our board will give you info you like better.

Well I'm happy to say that not only did today go very well but my Dad stopped by petco and spoke to some people and found there are two trainers, one who specializes in Odin's type of behavioral problems and large dogs, and has been a trainer for 60 years. So Odin is signed up for classes now.

Of course there is a high possibility that his previous home has contributed many of the problems he has today, maybe growling or over protectiveness is what landed him in the shelter, but i can't be certain. I forgot to mention, since you asked two posts ago, that no, there is absolutely no background information on him. Also, i have many ideas about dogs, i don't agree with a lot of the dominance theories, i make up my own mind on what i believe is more truthful to what the dog is communicating after reading a lot of different opinions. One of the most important things to me is his trust. During walks i stop and turn the opposite way rather than tugging to hard because i personally believe tugging too much is uncomfortable and might have him lose trust in my guidance. I don't want to dominate a dog. That's the last the i want. I've always appreciated dogs for being companions, and if i had it my way everything and everyone would be equal. Fact is though, there are certain things that hold true and make sense about packs and pack leadership. Things that you witness in dog packs. They have their rules and we try to play by those rules. This morning i started another attempt at dealing with the growling by eating a couple of crackers before giving him his food. The idea is that he sees me eating first as a pack leader would, and then he can eat once i'm done. It's something that makes a lot of sense to me, so i tried it.

I never suggested you told me to take him back to the shelter, i only said that wasn't an option at all, ever.

Lastly, thank you for the book recs. I'll get on that this weekend. It seems that the two books are very much about positive reinforcement and contrary to what you might believe, that is the ultimate tactic i use with Odin and that i believe in, more than dominance and anything else. I recently got a clicker and it's helped even more with praising his good behaviour.

Anyway, thank you for responding, i do mean that.

[underthemangotree]

I don't think you've had him long enough to build a trust between you. He evidently had something in his past to make him have trust issues. I would be loving to him. Make sure he knows he has to depend on you for his needs. I was watching Animal Planet, and they work with dogs with these kinds of problems by using a hand on a stick. They pet and sweet talk the dog with the fake hand till he gets used to it. He needs to trust that you aren't going to take it away. I would say not to punish him by taking away food, treats or toys. I would keep treating him with kindness. Placing yourself as "alpha" may make matters worse. Try giving a treat before you take the toy. Give lots of praise. It may take awhile. I would not allow children near him in these situations till you have his behavior modified. Good luck. It is often hard to get an older dog because you have to undo his previous fears and insecurities.

Thanks so much.

Yeah, i always make sure to tell children that i haven't tested him around children. You make a great point that i hadn't though of yet, i've had him for 3 weeks now and that isn't enough time for him to truly trust me as even a dependable part of the pack, never mind a pack leader. He's such a great dog though and i love him so much, trust me, i'll do whatever it takes because all dogs can be repaired and improved, it's just up to the leader to stand up and fill that position. In the end a leader is not about intimidating, it's about providing, and i fully realize that, i only had a slip up yesterday.

You also really opened my eyes to another thought being that, taking whatever he is protecting is only further communicating the fact that he should be protective over it. Ah, i mean, such simple concepts and they flew right over my head. And yes, i usually do give him a treat to encourage the action and to reinforce the connection that giving me what i'm asking for is a good thing. Yeah, for sure, with an older dog comes more deeply rooted issues, but i'm the type of idiot that isn't always against that possibility. If i can do my part and give that dog a sense of self and family, i'm happy to do it, especially building confidence, i love being able to help a dog earn confidence.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I know some here may think this a bad idea but after a small training session in the backyard with walking him and using the clicker to show him i want him walking by my side, an awesome game of fetch with his rope toy, a little play time in his froggy pool (It's just a frog shaped kiddie pool), and some basic commands, i did take him out later in the evening. Dad stopped by after going to petco and he went out to the park with Odin and I. The initial plan was just a stroll on the streets but we opted for the park. I don't think he has ever been so great on a walk like he was today. I had him close to me while on the streets, like usual. He saw a few cats and didn't act up which was very nice. When we got to the park i let him lead and there was no tugging, the leash was slack for at least 85% of the time. He encountered several dogs and while hyper aware of some, he didn't bark, didn't lunge, and kept on walking with us. We met a nice German Shepherd, well, not exactly "nice" to him. She was a young girl and really quieted Odin down, he stayed very close to us because he didn't want to mess with her, but he did sniff her and she let him but definitely set boundaries. The only dog that had a jumping reaction from Odin was a small white dog that was not only high energy but wanted to get close to Odin as he walked by. But just after that we walked by a tiny chihuahua and not a peep or lunge/jump from Odin, and the chihuahua was also trying to get near him. We walked around the park twice and while some of you on here may argue that i should not take him out to public places, i simply disagree. That's not because of anything i read or anything i saw, it's just what i personally find can help him in a number of ways. I think seeing different people, seeing different dogs and animals (squirrels, cats, ducks, geese), getting to smell things and walk in a natural setting is really a positive experience. I'm extremely mindful of him and others, i'm careful. And i want him to meet other dogs if i feel he is walking into it with good body language and absolutely no aggression. Now, the fact remains that a dog fight can break out, be it in a dog park full of relatively friendly dogs, or on a walk down the street, but i am on the constant look out to make certain that any sign of aggression will be met with our retreat. But again, if you vehemently disagree with taking him to the park, i'd love to know your reasoning if you state it in an open and pleasant enough way.

We played a little fetch once we came back home. First with the frisbee, then with his rope toy, and then with a ball, he did not growl or take his toys away from me, in fact, he played the best game of fetch he has ever played and brought back everything i threw right back to me where i asked him to release it. At one point i was curious to see what would happen if i threw his bone. He fetched it and just as i suspected he took it away from me. I followed him and sat on the chair next to him, after a little bit of sitting quietly i asked him to give and when he backed off the bone i picked it up and threw it again for him and he brought it back to the same place, no growling, no aggression, no suspecting side eye, he was perfectly chill. And the entire game of fetch i was able to pet him (though i didn't linger at any point, just quick affirming touches at times because it's so second nature to pet him when i'm proud of him, and as soon as i realized i had my hand on him i would take it off so as to not push his buttons).

This post is in no way me trying to say that Odin is perfectly fine and has no issues, i found out the unfortunate way that there are serious things to work with and no matter how well he behaved today, we're still seeking help. Thanks to everyone who responded.

Also, is there any way to hide posts under a spoiler or cut? I've been looking but can't find anything on here. I know my posts are long and i hate having them take up the page.