Question on prey model

**Apollopuppy** · 07-09-2008, 05:34 PM

I have seen the "prey model" written up as 60% raw meaty bones 30% boneless muscle meat and 10% organ meat. Can someone tell me where this model sprung up from? Was this Dr. Tom Londsdale's model? Im curious who came up with this model for feeding. Thank you

jlab · 07-09-2008, 05:55 PM

I haven't seen those ratios and descriptions in any whole prey model. Perhaps someone else has.

The rule of thumb I've seen for whole prey is 80/10/10 which refers to 80% muscle meat/10% bone/10% organs. In practice it doesn't get that detailed. You just try to feed body parts with more meat than bone and occasionally throw in some organs.

**Apollopuppy** · 07-09-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by jlab

I haven't seen those ratios and descriptions in any whole prey model. Perhaps someone else has.

The rule of thumb I've seen for whole prey is 80/10/10 which refers to 80% muscle meat/10% bone/10% organs. In practice it doesn't get that detailed. You just try to feed body parts with more meat than bone and occasionally throw in some organs.

Yes I've seen that ratio as well (although slightly modified as 75% muscle meat 15% bone 10% organ)----whose model is THAT?

As for the 60/30/10 model, I think Baloo (aka Kate) mentioned it. Maybe she knows. Id PM her but I figure it would be good for others to hear what the answer is to my question

jlab · 07-09-2008, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Apollopuppy

Yes I've seen that ratio as well (although slightly modified as 75% muscle meat 15% bone 10% organ)----whose model is THAT?

I think what you're really asking is who coined the term "whole prey diet". The percentage ratios are really not that important. Most of these come from discussions in the Yahoo rawfeeding forum many years ago. That's where the concept of whole prey feeding for canines originated. At the time, members in the yahoo forum just tried to estimate the percentage content of the main prey in a wolf diet (ungulates). They used the results of wolf research from David Mech and other scientific research in Canada and the US.

**Apollopuppy** · 07-09-2008, 07:09 PM

They used the results of wolf research from David Mech and other scientific research in Canada and the US.

Are you saying his research was used to determine the approx percentages in prey?

jlab · 07-09-2008, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Apollopuppy

They used the results of wolf research from David Mech and other scientific research in Canada and the US.

Are you saying his research was used to determine the approx percentages in prey?

Yes but indirectly. Mech and others didn't publish wolf prey meat/bone/organ percentages. Their research reported prey observed in a wolf diet and what part of the prey wolves would consume. The forum members would then estimate the meat/bone/organ ratios from the prey and parts consumed reported in the research. For example the following study is typical of the the type of study forum members would reference:

The neck is a common attack point on calves and cow elk, unlike larger bulls, which are more likely to be attacked from behind. Immediately after killing an elk, wolves open the body cavity, using their canines and incisors, and remove and consume the internal organs such as the heart, lungs, liver, intestines, spleen, and kidneys. Consumed next are the large muscle masses of each leg. Wolves consume up to 10 kg of meat during initial feeding bouts and then rest in close proximity to the carcass for several hours before feeding again. With organs and major muscle mass consumed, wolves then pick the remaining tissue off ribs, leg bones, and hide. Using their carnassials to shear remaining meat and crush hard-to-chew materials such as bone, tendon, cartilage, and hide, wolves continue to obtain nutritional derivatives from virtually all parts of ungulate carcasses.
Foraging and Feeding Ecology of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Lessons from Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA, Stahler et. al

**Jackie** · 07-09-2008, 10:35 PM

I saw both the 60/30/10 and 80/10/10 when I was researching raw before switching over. I think the only real difference between those number guidelines is that the 60/30 is boneless MM/RMB and the 80/10 is MM/meatless bone. In other words, it seemed to be about weighing the bone with or without significant amounts of meat still attached and it would boil down to about the same ratio in the end.

I remember reading at the time that the numbers were based on rabbit carcasses, with a belief that rabbit was an ideal meal for a dog. But I was reading a ton of stuff around that time, so I have no idea of the source of that information any longer.

**Baloo317** · 07-13-2008, 09:22 PM

I use the 60/30/10 model (pretty sure I got that from someone on here..?). Basically because the 80/10/10 has you trying to guesstimate how much of an RMB is meat and how much is bone, and that seemed awfully open to error for me.

I think it works out to pretty much the same in the end, though, when I think about it kind of abstractly.

I agree with John though, this is all in the pursuit of building the "frankenprey", or whatever you want to call it. Trying to model the whole animal. 60% raw meaty bones, 30% plain old muscle meat, and 10% organs to me makes a pretty accurate "prey" animal.