Ratios and Weights

[Jackie]

I started Piper on raw just recently and have a couple of questions. She is currently eating commercial food in the morning (kibble/moist mix, will be switched to pre-prepared raw once the kibble/raw runs out in a couple more weeks) and "real raw" in the evenings.

Piper weighs 45 lbs and has always eaten lightly, skipping meals entirely fairly often. Based on the 2-3% of body weight rule, one meal raw per day, and Piper's usually light appetite, I've been feeding her about 8 oz raw for dinner. She eats this quickly and clearly wants more. Am I correct in feeding her 8 oz at dinner?

I've seen mentions of the ratios being about 30-50% RMB, 5-10% organs, and 40-65% muscle meat. Is this generally seen as ideal? If not, what are other proposed ratios and why? I've noted that RMBs are generally more than the weight I would then feed per meal (2.5 - 4 oz) and I would have to cut them smaller. Should I do this?

If I buy grocery store "whole" birds, do I need to weigh out the proportions, or do they work themselves out? For example, the natural foods co-op (meant for people) has duckling for sale. This is skinned, has the "acceptable" innards for people included, and is otherwise all there. Does this even out without weighing if I feed it over a few days?

I did buy a duckling and among recognizable innards (liver, heart, kidney) it had something that felt to be mostly bone (hard, at least), was cylindrical and about 3" long. No idea what this innard might be. Anyone have an idea? With the belief that whatever was inside a duck is likely okay for Piper, I'll feed it to her, but would still like to know what it is.

Where do brains fall on the MM/OM lists? The grocery store had frozen pork brains, but I have no idea how they "count".

I really appreciate help and guidance as I figure all of this out.

[jlab]

Can't help you out too much with the ratio thing - I abandoned that a long time ago. I've learned that as long as you feed close to whole prey (as you're doing with the whole duck), the ratios take care of themselves.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the percent of body weight rule, it's just a guideline to get started. 8 oz of dinner seems about right. You want her to stay a little hungry after eating. Also, remember that the bone in the raw meal is mostly indigestable so you can feed a little more compared to an all meat meal. 2.5 - 4 oz more per meal is fine - you don't want to cut them smaller. It's better to have a larger peice so she can rip/tear/chew rather than smaller cut up pieces that may be just big enough to swallow whole.

That 3" long cylindrical thing in the duckling is the neck bone. Just feed the neck bone and other organs along with the rest of the bird over a few days and you'll be feeding a whole prey diet which is a very good raw food diet IMO.

Pork brains count as an organ meal. Feed an organ meal occasionally - once a week is fine.

I think Piper is trying to tell you something when it comes to eating lightly and skipping meals fairly often with the kibble diet compared to still wanting more with the raw diet. One suggestion to think about: I recommend ditching the pre-prepared raw and just do more of the whole prey like the duckling. With the pre-prepared, you need to be concerned with how much to supplement depending on the ingredients and it's also expensive. Feeding close to whole prey does not require further supplementation.

[Baloo317]

Ooo!! I can help, I think!

Based on my reading, most people who follow the whole prey model go by the ratio 60-30-10 (RMB-MM-OM) I changed this slightly as my guys were getting some loose stools with all the organ meat. I use 65-30-5.

A good starting point is to feed 2% of the dogs weight (or, for a puppy, intended adult weight) daily.

I'm assuming Piper is full grown, so I'll calculate based on that. So, 45 X 0.02 = 0.9 lbs, or 14.4 ounces daily

To calculate RMB percentage (using the 60-30-10) you would do 14.4 X 0.6 = 8.64 ounces daily

For MM, 14.4 X 0.3 = 4.32 ounces daily

And for OM, 14.4 X 0.1 = 1.44 ounces daily.

I bought a good digital kitchen scale, and weigh everything to one tenth of an ounce (so 1.44 would be 1.4, etc)

With my dogs, I found that 2% and 2.5% wasn't enough, so I've gone to 3% and they're both doing really well. Probably one day I won't have to measure everything all the time, but until I get comfortable with it, I will measure and weigh, to be able to get into the swing of it so that one day it's natural and easy.

Good luck!

[Jackie]

Thanks for the help and advice, both of you! To respond to a few things:

I'm not too worried about her swallowing her things whole as she seems to really enjoy chewing - even if she could swallow something whole, she does still chew it. But I'm happy to get out of the extra work of cutting things down!

I'm planning on feeding pre-prepared in the morning because mornings around here are super-rushed. I usually put down food for the various animals, then jump in the shower. After the shower, I pick up the food, dress, and am out the door. Since I don't have the time in my mornings to supervise the food, and I'm really not willing to give up the precious sleep time to start supervising the food, the pre-prepared seems "safer" even if it is not ideal food. I have thought about cutting more of the meat off the whole animals rather than leaving so much attached to the bone, then feeding MM in the mornings and RMBs in the evenings, when I have time to supervise. I'll think about this more as I continue to work out Piper's diet.

Baloo, thanks for the information on the ratios. That makes me feel better, because that actually matches up better with what I've been giving. Piper is over a year old, so she's full grown, though she may develop a bit more. My instinct is to pay attention to those numbers especially when I'm doing "mixed" prey - RMB from one source, MM from another source, and OM from another source. When I'm doing "whole" prey, I'm more inclined to chop it up and not measure. But until I find a more reliable source for the whole prey, I'll need to measure somewhat.

I do have one more question: Piper has a vet check up in two weeks and my vet is generally very open-minded, so I anticipate no opposition to the raw diet. If possible, I would like a way to check to make sure that I am actually keeping Piper healthy. I know that much of her health is visible to me (coat, ears, eyes, body shape, activity level) but are there tests I should perhaps request to check on her health as well? Is there a benefit to a general blood test now and another one in six months? Would that "red flag" anything that I could be doing wrong? (Or right?)

I am very happy that Piper seems to love her raw foods much more than kibble/moist and see that as my main motivation to continue to feed them. Thanks so much for the information and reassurances!

[jlab]

I do have one more question: Piper has a vet check up in two weeks and my vet is generally very open-minded, so I anticipate no opposition to the raw diet. If possible, I would like a way to check to make sure that I am actually keeping Piper healthy. I know that much of her health is visible to me (coat, ears, eyes, body shape, activity level) but are there tests I should perhaps request to check on her health as well? Is there a benefit to a general blood test now and another one in six months? Would that "red flag" anything that I could be doing wrong? (Or right?)

Yes, you can get a full bloodwork test done as a baseline. There are a few of those blood tests that have different ranges for raw fed dogs. You or your vet should be able to find those ranges on-line. You may want to suggest that your vet join the RawVet Yahoo list (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVet/) for easy access to this info and more vet related info for raw fed dogs.