DAPP vaccine
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  1. #1
    henrysmom is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultDAPP vaccine

    I'm curious...

    What are the risks of a healthy adult dog contracting distemper/adenovirus (is this hepatitis?)/parainfluenza/parvo and the severity of the subsequent illness?

    For example, I know parvo is deadly to pups, but is it equally horrible to adult dogs? Elderly dogs?

    Gorsebrook Jackson Triggs, CD, RN, WC, CGN<br />Kelrobin A Twist of Fate<br /><br />

  2. #2
    Fallriver's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Distemper is mostly a disease of young puppies but it can occur in adults and because there is a very high mortality rate and no known cure, it might make sense to vaccinate for it (although a vaccine given after 12 weeks should be good for life, especially as the maternal antibodies for distemper seem to wane earlier than parvo, at about 8 weeks).
    Parvo is almost exclusively found in puppies and is almost always self limiting in healthy adults. My opinion is it is not necessary for adults.
    There are two type of adenovirus (CAV): type 1 is hepatitis which attacks the liver and other organs, and type 2 is pretty much kennel cough, affecting the respiratory tract. Canine hepatitis can have a high mortality rate.

    Having said, that, if your puppy was vaccinated, the odds of a healthy dog contracting any of these disease is very, very low, even if he is never vaccinated again.

    Here is a direct quote from immunologist Jean Dodds, DVM.

    “Why should we be giving pets foreign substances when they do not need them,” said Dodds, who has researched the vaccination guidelines for over 30 years. Veterinarians, she said, have been giving annual vaccinations simply because it’s assumed they are needed and were recommended by the United States Department of Agriculture.

    “There never was any data that suggested vaccines must be given yearly,” Dodds said. “Veterinarians assumed there was data but there wasn’t.” Vaccines like parvovirus and canine distemper are responsible for many diseases of the immune system in dogs, she contends. Anemia, arthritis, epilepsy, thyroid disease, liver failure, diabetes, allergies and other conditions, she believes, are linked to vaccines.

    “Approximately five to 10 percent will develop problems,” Dodds said. “That increases to 20 percent in pure breeds.” Irish Setters, Great Danes, German Shepherds, weimaraners and akitas are at higher risk of developing Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy, a bone disease that causes a 107 degree fever, pain, and the inability to walk as a result of vaccinations, she said.

    “But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life.

    No effect

    However, if another vaccine is given a year later, antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the second vaccine, producing little or no effect.Not only are annual boosters for parvovirus and distemper unnecessary, they subject a pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated hemolytic anemia, a life threatening disease that generally has unknown causes, said Dodds. There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of these vaccines, she said.

    Dr. Bob Rogers, DVM, Critter Fixer Pet Hospital, in Texas, agrees.

    “Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life.

    “Every three years is probably a completely arbitrary number,” Dr. Rogers adds. “I’ve told my clients that after one year of age they don’t need to vaccinate anymore.” Rogers estimates that in nine years, he has used this protocol on some 30,000 dogs – “and I haven’t had one vaccine ‘break’ [failure].”

    Compare that to the odds of allergies, arthritis, cancer, etc., and I find the re-vaccination answer is pretty obvious
    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
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  3. #3
    henrysmom is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Thanks, Dana!!
    Gorsebrook Jackson Triggs, CD, RN, WC, CGN<br />Kelrobin A Twist of Fate<br /><br />

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    imported_Nick is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Parvo is almost exclusively found in puppies and is almost always self limiting in healthy adults.
    I don't know if it's regional, but that most certainly is not the case here - and I can vouch from personal experience. I used to work at a vet clinic, and it seemed the summer months (more dogs out, greater interaction, etc.) brought the highest frequency and by no mean is it limited to, or largely related to puppies. We saw it hit dogs of all ages, though the lethality was higher in puppies and senior dogs (or dogs with compromised immunities).

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    Canyon Labradors's Avatar
    Canyon Labradors is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Do you think there is any corrolation between the adults you saw with Parvo and people who may just not have even bothered vaccinating their puppies? You know that people get dogs from all over, and under all sort of pretenses, so I am wondering if the Parvo in adult dogs may have had other extenuating circumstances aside from being healthy dogs, vaccinated as puppies, now getting ill??

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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Quote Originally Posted by CYNLABS
    Do you think there is any corrolation between the adults you saw with Parvo and people who may just not have even bothered vaccinating their puppies? You know that people get dogs from all over, and under all sort of pretenses, so I am wondering if the Parvo in adult dogs may have had other extenuating circumstances aside from being healthy dogs, vaccinated as puppies, now getting ill??
    Oh yeah, but I was assuming that we were talking about unvaccinated dogs. One major reason the virus is more common in puppies is because adults are typically vaccinated. Perhaps I misunderstood what henrysmom was asking.

    It's hard to tell, though, because some people just dropped off dogs that were sick and had little to no medical history, but the vets seemed to think the vast majority were not vaccinated.

    There could be a million reasons - was it solely because they weren't vaccinated, or was it because they weren't properly taken care of? Who knows. My guess is that if a dog is never vaccinated, they can either get parvo and die as a pup or develop an immunity. The adult dogs we saw probably were never vaccinated and came into contact with the virus later on in life. I don't know the answer, but I do know vets see plenty of adult dogs - for whatever reasons.

    Edit:
    I see now what you're getting at...a dog that was properly vaccinated as a puppy and then not revaccinated again. I think, though, that goes more to the efficacy of the vaccine as opposed to mere age (which is why I was brining up the adult dogs that also get parvo).

  8. #7
    henrysmom is offline Senior Member
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    My bad, I wasn't clear in asking...

    This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?

    Sorry, Nick!


    Gorsebrook Jackson Triggs, CD, RN, WC, CGN<br />Kelrobin A Twist of Fate<br /><br />

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    Fallriver's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    ...a dog that was properly vaccinated as a puppy and then not revaccinated again. I think, though, that goes more to the efficacy of the vaccine as opposed to mere age (which is why I was brining up the adult dogs that also get parvo).
    Breeders and pet owners who do not vaccinate for parvo carefully exose our puppies to more and more dogs and gradually to areas where there is more dog traffic. In order to stimulate natural immunity, we make sure that our puppies are not isolated but are carefully and systematically exposed to all those bugs out there so that the body can build immunity. I work at a shelter and have had parvo in my house once and it only affected one of my puppies...the rest were fine (as was he after a couple of days).

    The reason puppies succumb to parvo and distemper is that they have immature immune systems and in the case of very young puppies, passive immune systems. As puppies and dogs are exposed to viruses, the immune system becomes 'greased' and becomes more and more effective at creating immunity, even in the face of a novel virus.

    Generally, adult dogs should have been exposed to virtually everything IF they are allowed to be out of the house and exposed to all the bugs and viruses that lay on the streets and in the parks. IMO, so many dogs are just kept at home (especially puppies who people fear will drop dead if they took them to a park before they turn 4 months), and their immune systems do not get enough practice and become sluggish. Of course, this is an even bigger problem when they are stressed, lacking proper nutrition and constantly dealing with frontline applications, wormers, drugs for everything under the sun, etc. On top of that, people who have busy lives these days and have no time for a dog but get them anyway. They are underexercised and understimulated and become idiots that are relegate to the home or the yard because they can not be taken anywhere. These dogs have never been given the chance to acquire natural immunity and when they encounter something like parvo, they are unable to surmount an immune challenge.

    Most adult dogs have some level of exposure to the environment and have better functioning immune systems, so can take parvo in stride.

    Vaccination does not create immunity. It stimulates the immune system which in turn builds immunity. We can create immunity without vaccinations and in a normal situation, the older the dog, the more he has been exposed, so the better his immunity (assuming he is a healthy dog of course). So it is not completely the efficacy of the vaccine that is at work. In short, older healthy typically dogs have better functioning immune systems.

    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
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  10. #9
    Fallriver's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?
    The risk is > 5% in lab animals who are exposed to very high levels of pathogen.
    How severe will the subsequent illness be? There's the rub...it depends entirely on the health and immunity of your animal. This is where you must decide whether you want to prevent the 5% risk by vaccinating (which will almost definitely negatively impact his health and immunity), or accept the 5% risk and do your best to build his health and immune system so that in the unlikely event he does become ill, his body can successfully fight it off.

    Dana


    To err is human:To forgive, canine."
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    imported_Nick's Avatar
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    DefaultRe: DAPP vaccine

    Quote Originally Posted by henrysmom
    My bad, I wasn't clear in asking...

    This is what I meant: what are the risks of a healthy adult dog who was given the puppy series of vaccinations AND 1st yr boosters of contracting distemper/adenovirus/parainfluenza/parvo and how severe would the subsequent illness be?

    Sorry, Nick!
    No problem at all. Well, if you want a definitive answer, you won't get one that has sound backing. Until there is more researching detailing the true lifespan of immunity derived from vaccines, it's an unsettled area. The trend is certainly that they last a lot longer than people originally believed.

    I can tell you that Jes just had his three year boosters, and will be due another one at age 7, and that's it for boosters (other than rabies due to the law). I can tell you I've had vets say that may be overdoing and other saying that's way too risky and they need 3-years boosters forever.

    Undoubtedly this is a pretty contentious area even for vets. I have a cousin in vet school down at Auburn and she said there are quite the heated debates regarding just how long vaccination-induced immunities last. Who knows, I may not have him revaccinated at 7 years of age, it just depends. My gut is that the chances are significantly lower (even if the vaccine wasn't readministered after the first booster) - especially since, from what we could tell, almost all of the dogs with parvo (regardless of age) were not vaccinated. But, since I don't have any hard data to back it up, it's just my opinion.

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