Need Breeding help

**rayluckgoo** · 01-12-2011, 05:32 PM

Hi,
For the first time someone has shown an interest in using our Ben for breeding. Before you jump on me...he's almost three years old, OFA excellent hips, elbows normal, cardiac cleared, Optigen A by parentage and current CERF. He has points and has been a bridesmaid (Reserve) many times. He continues to be shown.
The bitch is a daughter of a champion, OFA hips good, Elbows normal, isn't current on CERF but will be by that time. She is experienced and has produced puppies that have been shown.
Here's my question...the bitch owner only does artificial insemination (I understand...and am cool with that). The problem is....I don't really know how semen collection occurs and would like to not sound super stupid when I talk to her. Not having any experience in that area....what do I do, say, who do I get help from etc. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

**ThreeTs** · 01-12-2011, 06:52 PM

If I were you I would contact a repro vet well in advance, and try to learn as much as possible from that vet. There are several books on dog breeding that should be easy to find. If the bitch owner is knowledgeable about the subject then why don't you learn from her? Don't worry about sounding stupid we all do sometimes.

You need to have an EIC and CNM tests done on at least one of the prospective parents so you don't produce affected puppies. The bitch owner should be worrying about these tests too and if she isn't I would question whether you should offer her stud service at all. Make sure you do the tests!

Exercise Induced Collapse - CVM - VDL, University of Minnesota
Centronuclear Myopathy in Labradors

A testing lab that has a the best deal on tests and very reliable I've heard: Animal DNA Testing Services

**nicole** · 01-12-2011, 07:38 PM

Do you have a mentor or breeder friends that can show you how to collect? It's not that difficult, but if you (and your boy) don't know what you're doing, it can lead very quickly to a missed breeding and a lot of frustration. Will the breeding be side by side or shipped semen? Will the bitch come stay with you or simply come over for the breedings? If the bitch's owner is experienced, she may be able to handle the breeding herself, with your assistance, if she wants it bad enough.

**rayluckgoo** · 01-12-2011, 08:00 PM

Thank You. I was planning on EIC eventually (waiting for a clinic) but around here nobody seems to do CNM (which everyone on this forum just used the acronym and I didn't know what it was). But they certainly seem affordable and tomorrow is payday so I'll get those pronto. Ben is co-owned and his breeder will return shortly so I'm sure she can answer some questions and I'll get to see the Bitch's owner in person in a couple of weeks. I'm just trying to get my head around this so I can ask intelligent questions. One of my specific questions is: "Do I need to buy anything?" Another is...do the females always come to the males? I would really prefer going to them because Jackson isn't neutered and I'm afraid a bitch in heat wouldn't help their friendship. The bitch lives about an hour away. Again...thanks in advance

**nicole** · 01-12-2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by rayluckgoo

"Do I need to buy anything?"

Yes, you can have syringes and insemination tubes on hand. I collect into a ziplock bag. You can get kits like this... Reproduction Resources - Canine Collection - Insemination Kit or buy things separately.

Another is...do the females always come to the males? I would really prefer going to them because Jackson isn't neutered and I'm afraid a bitch in heat wouldn't help their friendship. The bitch lives about an hour away.

Usually, yes...but that doesn't mean always. You can go to them or meet somewhere else, there are no hard and fast rules. If your set up isn't conducive to keeping a bitch while breeding, simply tell them that. If they decide to come up just for the breeding(s), crate your other boy somewhere else in the house and he'll never know what happened. Have the bitch owner potty her in an area not used by your dogs. You can also meet at the vet and let them handle the situation

**windycanyon** · 01-13-2011, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by rayluckgoo

Thank You. I was planning on EIC eventually (waiting for a clinic) but around here nobody seems to do CNM (which everyone on this forum just used the acronym and I didn't know what it was). But they certainly seem affordable and tomorrow is payday so I'll get those pronto. Ben is co-owned and his breeder will return shortly so I'm sure she can answer some questions and I'll get to see the Bitch's owner in person in a couple of weeks. I'm just trying to get my head around this so I can ask intelligent questions. One of my specific questions is: "Do I need to buy anything?" Another is...do the females always come to the males? I would really prefer going to them because Jackson isn't neutered and I'm afraid a bitch in heat wouldn't help their friendship. The bitch lives about an hour away. Again...thanks in advance

I don't know of any clinics for EIC or CNM, just the PRA/Optigen clinics but then that test is much more money than the EIC and CNM tests (roughly $65 ea). It's so easy (just like PRA) to just download the forms, do the cheek swab or blood draw and mail it off to whoever you want to use. If you want the results to count for OFA, you'll need to use U of MN VDL for the EIC test though. I use Alfort (who developed the CNM test) in France for my CNM. Quite easy and painless. If you have trouble finding the links, they are on my website (library page).

As for the breeding arrangement, yes, the male could go to the bitch owner but I do have a little problem w/ stud owners charging ME the full stud fee if I'm the one doing the service! I figure part of that fee is to take care of my bitch during the process (boarding etc), so if I had to care for your male and do all the running to the vet, etc in this case, I'd expect a bit of a break from the fee. JMO. Anne

**Canyon Labradors** · 01-13-2011, 02:52 PM

You can take care of EIC and CNM yourself through Canine Coat Color DNA Testing | VDC

Some folks want you to do the blood test so that it goes through U Minn and then shows on OFA, but not absolutely necessary. You can order the cheek swab kit. They mail it to you. You follow the instructions and mail it back with your $58 for EIC and $20 for CNM and usually within a week they email you the results and then mail you later.

Jed was used once, and we had the vet collect and do a side by side AI with the bitch. Very easy. If you have to ship, you'll need a few more items. Best to find out for sure what they have in mind...shipped, side by side etc. And then the rest usually falls into place.

**rayluckgoo** · 01-13-2011, 08:45 PM

Thank You! Thank You ! Thank You!
Ordering the semen collection kit, a book and the cheek swab kit to do EIC and CNM. Have enough information to at least seem like a beginner and not a moron.
I'm going to talk to Ben's breeder and then the bitch owner and finalize some plans. Actually the bitch lives (that doesn't sound so good) in the same town as our vet so maybe I can do some arrangements there (although it's not the bitch owners vet). I don't seem to have many answers yet but at least I'm learning the questions to ask and that's half the battle.
I have no idea about stud fees (but I think Ben's breeder and co-owner will have a say in that)...but I would welcome more info about anything and stud fees/contracts etc.
Thank you again.

**Canyon Labradors** · 01-14-2011, 10:57 AM

When we did Jed's collection and the AI, we went to my vet and the bitch owner brought her girl there. Doesn't matter if they aren't a client. I paid my expenses, they paid their expenses.

I am sure your breeder and co-owner probably have a stud contract and an idea on pricing. But you can google alot of that online. I created mine after reading about 10 different ones online.

Some folks do a service fee up front. The bitch owner pays the fee, it basically covers expense of collection etc. THEN if the breeding takes, the bitch owner owes the remainder. If it doesn't take, then the bitch owner doesn't have to do a rebreed if they don't want to. Little expense up front, but you need to be pretty careful with the bitch owner just in case they are the type to then have the pups and try to not pay up.

You can also do a full fee up front before the goods are delivered. We did that with our current litter. Then when we missed, we had that paid for and just needed to wait until Grace was in season again.

For some stud owners, the stud fee is literally the price for the semen and nothing else. A bitch owner would then need to be prepared to pay for collection, extender, shipping, supplies etc. For some stud owners, expenses except for shipping are part of the fee. Make sure that's all spelled out so there are no misunderstandings.

**windycanyon** · 01-14-2011, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Canyon Labradors

Some folks want you to do the blood test so that it goes through U Minn and then shows on OFA, but not absolutely necessary.

MN has been taking cheek swabs for quite some time now too if you want it to show on OFA. You can just go down to the pharmacy and buy some buccal swabs. Of course w/ OFA certs, you DO want a vet verifying the microchip or tattoo on the dog.